Silver Black Pearl?

[Raikit]

I've been experimenting with pearl just to get more familiar with the coloring and have a filly that's giving me some trouble. I know mom is black + 2x pearl + dun. From what I can tell, dad is chestnut + 1x pearl + 1x cream. I'm also guessing he has silver. Here is the filly in question:

⇒ɱρξ⇐ Lady Barbie


I think she's a double pearl silver dapple. Her mane was light from birth but it's not the bright white of palomino which is why I think silver rather than chestnut base with either cream of flaxen. She also clearly has dapples all over her body which makes me think black base. (Actually, clearly isn't the right word for the dapples, but they're definitely there.)

Anybody have any input?

[Fox13]

I've been experimenting with pearl just to get more familiar with the coloring and have a filly that's giving me some trouble. I know mom is black + 2x pearl + dun. From what I can tell, dad is chestnut + 1x pearl + 1x cream. I'm also guessing he has silver. Here is the filly in question:

⇒ɱρξ⇐ Lady Barbie


I think she's a double pearl silver dapple. Her mane was light from birth but it's not the bright white of palomino which is why I think silver rather than chestnut base with either cream of flaxen. She also clearly has dapples all over her body which makes me think black base. (Actually, clearly isn't the right word for the dapples, but they're definitely there.)

Anybody have any input?

You know... I was just (today) thinking about dapples and cruising the forums. I was wondering and remembering that dapples appear at other times, not just on silver black. Those other times are when the horse grays and I also remembered that there is a dappling affect linked to the sooty gene.
My guess, two creams and at least one pearl (I think the pearl is why the coat is so light)... no champagne. Perhaps also pangare (I see a definite lightening to the legs, but I didn't go far back in her history to find where it might come from).
I would have to agree that those dapples are from the cross of silver and black. I also think I see early varnishing signs from our friendly appaloosa genes, which in retrospect, could be what I want to call pangare.

But then again... colors are not my best area of expertise.

[Raikit]

I've been experimenting with pearl just to get more familiar with the coloring and have a filly that's giving me some trouble. I know mom is black + 2x pearl + dun. From what I can tell, dad is chestnut + 1x pearl + 1x cream. I'm also guessing he has silver. Here is the filly in question:

⇒ɱρξ⇐ Lady Barbie


I think she's a double pearl silver dapple. Her mane was light from birth but it's not the bright white of palomino which is why I think silver rather than chestnut base with either cream of flaxen. She also clearly has dapples all over her body which makes me think black base. (Actually, clearly isn't the right word for the dapples, but they're definitely there.)

Anybody have any input?

You know... I was just (today) thinking about dapples and cruising the forums. I was wondering and remembering that dapples appear at other times, not just on silver black. Those other times are when the horse grays and I also remembered that there is a dappling affect linked to the sooty gene.
My guess, two creams and at least one pearl (I think the pearl is why the coat is so light)... no champagne. Perhaps also pangare (I see a definite lightening to the legs, but I didn't go far back in her history to find where it might come from).
I would have to agree that those dapples are from the cross of silver and black. I also think I see early varnishing signs from our friendly appaloosa genes, which in retrospect, could be what I want to call pangare.

But then again... colors are not my best area of expertise.

Crap, I forgot about the varnish. Looking closer, she has snowflakes on her stomach so she will varnish out. Darn. I'll have to find a nice non-lp stud for her.

Pearl and cream are very interesting. They're located at the same spot on the chromosome, so you can't have two creams plus a pearl, or two pearls plus a cream. You can only have two pearls, two creams, or one pearl and one cream. (Or less, of course.) Because mom has two pearls I know she does not have cream. Dad has one cream and one pearl. So baby is either double pearl or pearl and cream together. I don't think she has cream, because I'm pretty sure pearl+cream should give her blue eyes and her eyes appear more gray than blue to me.

As for the pangare-looking markings - that can be caused by silver on black. There was actually a post about that recently. And I think she'd be darker in color if sooty was causing the dapples. (And I do know she's not gray, so it shouldn't be from gray.)

[BlackOak2]

Crap, I forgot about the varnish. Looking closer, she has snowflakes on her stomach so she will varnish out. Darn. I'll have to find a nice non-lp stud for her.

Pearl and cream are very interesting. They're located at the same spot on the chromosome, so you can't have two creams plus a pearl, or two pearls plus a cream. You can only have two pearls, two creams, or one pearl and one cream. (Or less, of course.) Because mom has two pearls I know she does not have cream. Dad has one cream and one pearl. So baby is either double pearl or pearl and cream together. I don't think she has cream, because I'm pretty sure pearl+cream should give her blue eyes and her eyes appear more gray than blue to me.

As for the pangare-looking markings - that can be caused by silver on black. There was actually a post about that recently. And I think she'd be darker in color if sooty was causing the dapples. (And I do know she's not gray, so it shouldn't be from gray.)

Okay, now I'm a little confused... so with this new information, that brings me to a new question that I didn't have before. I was considering that (even though I knew pearl was a recessive form of cream) they were next to each other, not at the same spot on the genome. If this (appearing on the same spot, having one, or the other, or none at all) is the way it's handled in real life... is this also the way it's being handled in the game? Or do I have that wrong that this is the way it's being handled in the game (and only because we don't really know how it's handled in real life, but it never comes up as a double for both in real life)?

I suppose my confusion on this is because I've played a couple other games that allowed for double cream, double pearl.

By the way, she has a beautifully expressed light-golden coloration. If her eyes aren't blue from double cream (or single cream and pearl)... you expressed it as a gray. I see blue... but could that be tiger eye instead? But that can still happen with no champagne as long as you have two.

Or am I getting something else mixed up?

[Raikit]

Okay, now I'm a little confused... so with this new information, that brings me to a new question that I didn't have before. I was considering that (even though I knew pearl was a recessive form of cream) they were next to each other, not at the same spot on the genome. If this (appearing on the same spot, having one, or the other, or none at all) is the way it's handled in real life... is this also the way it's being handled in the game? Or do I have that wrong that this is the way it's being handled in the game (and only because we don't really know how it's handled in real life, but it never comes up as a double for both in real life)?

I suppose my confusion on this is because I've played a couple other games that allowed for double cream, double pearl.

By the way, she has a beautifully expressed light-golden coloration. If her eyes aren't blue from double cream (or single cream and pearl)... you expressed it as a gray. I see blue... but could that be tiger eye instead? But that can still happen with no champagne as long as you have two.

Or am I getting something else mixed up?

I don't know if that's how pearl and cream interact in real life, but that's how HWO handles it. Fun little mechanic that I didn't know about until I had my first pearl/cream pop up and had to post to ask what color she was. XD

Thanks! I like her color, too. I'm sad that it'll varnish out as she ages. I did take a closer picture so you can see what I mean about her gray eyes:



Is that how the game depicts blue eyes? Because to me they're not blue, they're more like a gray that is just very slightly brown-ish. Could tiger eye cause gray eyes? I've never had it on this coat color before so I don't know. Here's a picture of her full sister (a silver buckskin pearl) that does have blue eyes:

[BlackOak2]

I don't know if that's how pearl and cream interact in real life, but that's how HWO handles it. Fun little mechanic that I didn't know about until I had my first pearl/cream pop up and had to post to ask what color she was. XD

Thanks! I like her color, too. I'm sad that it'll varnish out as she ages. I did take a closer picture so you can see what I mean about her gray eyes:



Is that how the game depicts blue eyes? Because to me they're not blue, they're more like a gray that is just very slightly brown-ish. Could tiger eye cause gray eyes? I've never had it on this coat color before so I don't know. Here's a picture of her full sister (a silver buckskin pearl) that does have blue eyes:

Well, well... you're right. Thank you for the close ups. They are a bit more gray than blue.

I do remember reading that the color of eyes is in fact linked to the color of the coat. So if 'we' can figure out just what her genes are, then the gray-blue her eyes reveal should offer future insight into the genes other horses carry.

I like to imagine it as mixing paint colors. If you add blue and yellow, you get green, but put too much red in, then it'll go purple or brown or even black. Take one away and a whole new color reveals.

Since this game has a lot of real life genetics in it... I think I'll have to resort to what the internet might say on it and see if I can't help figure out what might be happening.

According to Totina's color guide, tiger eye can be expressed without champagne only when two alleles are present. And can be expressed with at least one champagne present. We know that your horse carries no champagne, because there is no freckles. So if it is tiger eye, that means you must have two alleles for it. We also know that tiger eye is carried only by NAB in our AC. We also know that the NAB is the only AC horse that also carries pearl. So it is possible that you have hidden tiger eye in your herd. We also know (thanks to Totina's color guide) that tiger eye will change appearance slightly according to the color of the horse.
The image doesn't come out like I wanted it to. I also posted instead of previewing... so I now need to edit.

http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... =13&t=2158

So what does that leave us? Still really in the same place as before. I don't think it's tiger eye, personally, but since I'm not that good at colors, my thoughts carry much less weight than yours does.
But it certainly doesn't mean I can't help you along.

What else do we know? Cream makes a coat appear yellow-like, except on black which appears more like a silver grullo without dapples (as a foal). Cream is also the one that offers pink skin and blue eyes when doubled. Pearl is recessive and never offers light eyes unless it is paired with cream. I do have it marked in my notes that it 'essentially looks like double cream, except with a lighter coat'. Which in fact, brings us right back to the cream/pearl I think we were first at.

You know what throws me off is the fact that her muzzle has no darker color on it that most other horses have.

So from here, I'll be researching some internet things and I'll post what information I find.

[BlackOak2]

I found this site very interesting.
http://colorgenetics.info/equine/diluti ... and-silver

According to wiki (which describes it better for a layman) Cream: 'When two copies of the allele are present, both red and black pigments are affected; red hairs still become cream, and black hairs become reddish. A single copy of the allele has minimal impact on eye color, but when two copies are present, a horse will be blue-eyed in addition to a light coat color.'
If I go on the wiki description, I would have to say the filly is cream/pearl on a chestnut coat.
Wiki describes cream again: 'While both red and black pigments are turned cream, the black pigment retains a little more color and tends to have a reddish or rusty tint. Thus all-red coats are turned all-ivory, all-black coats are turned all-rusty cream, and bay coats have ivory bodies with slightly darker points.'
Wiki also has this to say: 'Pseudo double-dilute vs. Cremello: A horse that has one cream allele and one pearl allele may resemble a homozygous cream, including pinkish skin and blue eyes. A combination of one cream and one Champagne allele may also produce a similar phenotype, though may be distinguishable by lighter yellowish or blue eyes and pale, faintly freckled skin.'
I also found this interesting in wiki: 'Double-cream champagne: any blue-eyed cream horse that also carries the champagne gene. The champagne traits are, in the few known individuals, not visible. The skin is quite pink.'
I also found this in the pearl section of wiki: 'A pseudo-double dilute will often have pale skin and blue or green eyes. Unlike the double cream dilute and the Pearl-cream pseudo dilute the double Pearl dilute typically has dark tan eyes. It is difficult if not impossible to tell a double cream dilute from a Pearl-cream pseudo dilute without genetic testing.'

Could your filly's eye be considered a tan instead of gray-blue? Then maybe a she is a really light expression of a double pearl on chestnut? But according to our color guide, a double pearl expression definitely has dark eyes.

I do like wiki... it helps explain certain things in a way I can better understand them sometimes.

I really like this site as well.
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html
If I were to base it off of that site, I might even call your filly a champagne, double cream. Except... except that all of our champagne's on this game are SUPPOSED to have freckles. And no matter how hard I look, they're just Not There.

So... even after all this... I'm back to saying that I think she's an expression of double cream or cream/pearl on chestnut. I don't know... cream/pearl might give that unusually gray eye color, instead of the bright blue of a double cream.

I don't know... now after all of that... I think I'm more confused than before.

[Totina]

I just can not resist to give my opinion to this matter since you both have been writing a lot about this particular horse's coat colour and I find your discussion pretty interesting, but with a few flaws as to how the game handles the real world genetics.

First of all: blue eyes in the game can be anything from bright blue to steel gray. If the horse is not champagne and the eyes are not clearly dark they are considered blue eyes which means the horse is either double cream or cream+pearl.

Second: if the horse is expressing a dappled pattern on the body and the pattern is not caused by greying or sooty, it is due to silver on a black based coat. No other base colour is showing a dapple effect from silver.

Third: if you look closely, the coat is a little more greenish than you would expect from a double diluted, silver dapple coat. This effect is caused by dun, which also can explain why the coat is lighter than normal as well.

At last looking at her parents: the dam is double pearl with dun, which is definitely ruling out a double cream and is also explaining the greenish and lighter than normal coat which is most likely the effect of the dun gene.
Her sire is chestnut based, which means that silver is not visible but can be passed down to the offsprings. Looking at his parents the silver gene is clearly visible on his dam if you look at older pictures.

With all this said, the conclusion would be that the horse discussed is Silver (Dapple) Smoky Black Pearl Dun.

[BlackOak2]

I'll need to update my notes on some of these. But I like this horse, it is a good representative of what can be. Definitely, shows that I still need to learn my dilutes.

[Raikit]

I just can not resist to give my opinion to this matter since you both have been writing a lot about this particular horse's coat colour and I find your discussion pretty interesting, but with a few flaws as to how the game handles the real world genetics.

First of all: blue eyes in the game can be anything from bright blue to steel gray. If the horse is not champagne and the eyes are not clearly dark they are considered blue eyes which means the horse is either double cream or cream+pearl.

Second: if the horse is expressing a dappled pattern on the body and the pattern is not caused by greying or sooty, it is due to silver on a black based coat. No other base colour is showing a dapple effect from silver.

Third: if you look closely, the coat is a little more greenish than you would expect from a double diluted, silver dapple coat. This effect is caused by dun, which also can explain why the coat is lighter than normal as well.

At last looking at her parents: the dam is double pearl with dun, which is definitely ruling out a double cream and is also explaining the greenish and lighter than normal coat which is most likely the effect of the dun gene.
Her sire is chestnut based, which means that silver is not visible but can be passed down to the offsprings. Looking at his parents the silver gene is clearly visible on his dam if you look at older pictures.

With all this said, the conclusion would be that the horse discussed is Silver (Dapple) Smoky Black Pearl Dun.

Thank you! The eyes is what really gets me. When I hear "blue eyes" I think just blue, but knowing that it includes gray is very helpful. I noticed that her siblings and other relatives had dark brown eyes so I thought maybe but them being gray just threw me off.

I knew that about silver and dapples, but thank you.

I've never worked with double-dilute silver blacks so that part is new to me. I've had smoky creams and smoky silver dapples but never silver smoky creams (or the pearl equivalent). XD

And that was what I was figuring for her sire. I saw his dam was clearly silver buckskin so figured he had it. And her dam does have the dun so I don't doubt she has it, but lets not forget the varnish as well. They're super hard to see, but she does have snowflakes on her belly (bottom near the middle) and is definitely varnishing out as she gets older.

I'll need to update my notes on some of these. But I like this horse, it is a good representative of what can be. Definitely, shows that I still need to learn my dilutes.

Same for me! That's the whole reason I'm experimenting with these pearls is so that I can become better acquainted with them. If you look through this horse's offspring (and their's as well) you can see what sort of things I've had so far.