Breeding for dapples

[reyn2]

I'm trying to create a dappled Welsh Cob that's true to type with feathering. I have a dappled mare and I have the option of two feathered stallions to try breed her back to, anyone with a better understanding of colours think either of these stallions will work?

This is the mare


And these are stallion #1

stallion #2


Thanks in advance

[Blue Rose Ranch]

I think its possible. While stallion 1 has silver, I would go for stallion 2 as he definitely carries non-agouti (he has black offspring, #1 doesn't), though I'm no expert - I'm more used to trying to breed specific genes out not in.

[BlackOak2]

I'm trying to create a dappled Welsh Cob that's true to type with feathering. I have a dappled mare and I have the option of two feathered stallions to try breed her back to, anyone with a better understanding of colours think either of these stallions will work?

Thanks in advance

The both seem to be buckskin (Blue Rose Ranch has it correct that stallion 1 carries silver). Stallion 1 also offers sooty (the second stallion may carry sooty as well and is also on a wild bay, rather than just a bay). Buckskin is a single cream on a bay, which must carry at least one black gene with the agouti gene for bay (unless I'm wrong about the black being necessary for agouti to express).
So either horse could offer you the silver black you're looking for. (Silver black is what offers you the dappling). However, to help ensure your offspring foals, carries and passes silver every time, you'll want to make your horses homozygous for silver, (which means carrying both alleles for the silver gene 'ZZ' versus 'Zz).

I would suggest breeding to stallion 1, the silver carrier. However, be aware that he could also pass on the cream he has.

So what you're looking for, for the dappling, is the silver gene and the black gene. Keep in mind, that grullo (silver and black with dun) can look almost identical to the silver blacks.

I recently posted a study of the silver gene and dapples, located in the color forum that may help you.

[Raikit]

The both seem to be buckskin (Blue Rose Ranch has it correct that stallion 1 carries silver). Stallion 1 also offers sooty (the second stallion may carry sooty as well and is also on a wild bay, rather than just a bay). Buckskin is a single cream on a bay, which must carry at least one black gene with the agouti gene for bay (unless I'm wrong about the black being necessary for agouti to express).

The black allele is not necessary for bay. For a horse to be bay it must be non-recessive for extension (E/E or E/e) and then dominant for agouti (A/A, A/at, A/a). The second stallion is proven that he also carries the black gene because he has black offspring but we don't know about the first since he doesn't have any black offspring.

Brief rundown on agouti:
-Bay: A/A, A/at, A/a
-Brown: at/at, at/a
-Black: a/a

Being homozygous recessive for extension (e/e) will mask any combination of agouti genes and make the horse chestnut.

After looking at the offspring off both studs I agree with Blue Rose that the second could give you the a you need to get a black offspring and then it would be up to the dam to pass silver. From the first stallion's foals my guess is that he is A/at, meaning all of his foals will be either bay or brown.

[BlackOak2]

The both seem to be buckskin (Blue Rose Ranch has it correct that stallion 1 carries silver). Stallion 1 also offers sooty (the second stallion may carry sooty as well and is also on a wild bay, rather than just a bay). Buckskin is a single cream on a bay, which must carry at least one black gene with the agouti gene for bay (unless I'm wrong about the black being necessary for agouti to express).

The black allele is not necessary for bay. For a horse to be bay it must be non-recessive for extension (E/E or E/e) and then dominant for agouti (A/A, A/at, A/a). The second stallion is proven that he also carries the black gene because he has black offspring but we don't know about the first since he doesn't have any black offspring.

Brief rundown on agouti:
-Bay: A/A, A/at, A/a
-Brown: at/at, at/a
-Black: a/a

Being homozygous recessive for extension (e/e) will mask any combination of agouti genes and make the horse chestnut.

After looking at the offspring off both studs I agree with Blue Rose that the second could give you the a you need to get a black offspring and then it would be up to the dam to pass silver. From the first stallion's foals my guess is that he is A/at, meaning all of his foals will be either bay or brown.

Well then, I stand corrected!
Here I was under the assumption that ee was chestnut and Ee or EE was black.
Well, I'm no color expert.

[Raikit]

Well then, I stand corrected!
Here I was under the assumption that ee was chestnut and Ee or EE was black.
Well, I'm no color expert.

At the base level, this is true. Extension/recessive red in its homozygous recessive (ee) form restricts expression of black pigment, making a horse chestnut. In its dominant form (Ee or EE) it does not restrict expression and allows black pigment over the entire body. So barring other modifiers the horse would be black. But then agouti comes along to "crash the party" if you will. Dominant agouti restricts the black pigment so that it only shows up on the legs, mane, and tail. Brown agouti allows greater expression but still keeps the warm areas (flank, etc) red. And then recessive says "whatever" and lets the black be expressed all over.

[BlackOak2]

Well then, I stand corrected!
Here I was under the assumption that ee was chestnut and Ee or EE was black.
Well, I'm no color expert.

At the base level, this is true. Extension/recessive red in its homozygous recessive (ee) form restricts expression of black pigment, making a horse chestnut. In its dominant form (Ee or EE) it does not restrict expression and allows black pigment over the entire body. So barring other modifiers the horse would be black. But then agouti comes along to "crash the party" if you will. Dominant agouti restricts the black pigment so that it only shows up on the legs, mane, and tail. Brown agouti allows greater expression but still keeps the warm areas (flank, etc) red. And then recessive says "whatever" and lets the black be expressed all over.

So if I were to take it at face value, you are essentially saying there are two types of black, one that is Ee and EE and the other that is aa. But really, what you're saying is that there is always an agouti gene and always an extension gene and that extension in its most recessive form is actually dominant over agouti in its most recessive form. As in: ee with aa is chestnut. And also where agouti is considered 'negative' than it is simply the 'absence of brown'.

I was using it slightly backwards, attaching the black coloration directly to the extension gene alongside the chestnut instead of attaching it to the agouti gene alongside the brown coloration. Generally speaking, it does get you to the same result... most times. Except in those instances when the horse is homozygous for bay or brown or is a bay/brown carrier.

I got it now.

[Arctictea]

Hi, I'm breeding for dapples as well... But I'm only in the very beginning, trying to catch up the dapple from my lucky turkemene mares.
Here they are:
Metallic Puma

Jelly Daisy

Definitely Dapples


I also have some stallions that are light / maybe dappled. Unfortunately dapples are like feathers - you must wait for them.
Mortal Bessie

Unnamed


You can, of course, get dapples by breeding silver blacks (and greys I think?), but I don't know if they are related to these sooty dapples. I think larissar said that the (sooty) dapple gene was only in one breed (which seems to be turkmene).

If you're interested in trying to breed in sooty dapple, I could notify you when I have som more reasonable stallions (or if you can't wait you can simply look in the heritage of my ladies - there are two public studs that I've used with clear dapples).

For getting silver dapple, I vote on stallion 2.

[BlackOak2]

Hi, I'm breeding for dapples as well... But I'm only in the very beginning, trying to catch up the dapple from my lucky turkemene mares.
Here they are:

I also have some stallions that are light / maybe dappled. Unfortunately dapples are like feathers - you must wait for them.

You can, of course, get dapples by breeding silver blacks (and greys I think?), but I don't know if they are related to these sooty dapples. I think larissar said that the (sooty) dapple gene was only in one breed (which seems to be turkmene).

If you're interested in trying to breed in sooty dapple, I could notify you when I have som more reasonable stallions (or if you can't wait you can simply look in the heritage of my ladies - there are two public studs that I've used with clear dapples).

For getting silver dapple, I vote on stallion 2.

You are correct. Gray dapples and sooty dapples are completely different and unrelated to each other and also to the black silver.

The two original posts for sooties, are here:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 1&start=10
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... f=8&t=4511

[Arctictea]

You are correct. Gray dapples and sooty dapples are completely different and unrelated to each other and also to the black silver.

The two original posts for sooties, are here:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 1&start=10
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... f=8&t=4511

Thanks for digging them up! Will be useful