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Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Until registries are in place the Breeding Communities forum will be for players to work together towards creating or improving their favourite breeds.
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Each breed may have only one topic. The first post in the topic is to be informative. It should help explain the breed, and breeding goals; advice on how to select mares and stallions; and links to ideal Stallions available for breeding.
Keeping a directory of breeders working on the same goal is also helpful.
All new threads must be approved.
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MysticSinZ
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Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by MysticSinZ »

I read here that you can make an Ardennais by crossbreeding a Forest Horse and a Belgian.
I did this (both Forest Horse and Belgian breeds 100% and were overall 5), but I ended up with a (Forest Horse x Belgian 50%) I bred two different horses and ended up with the same thing. I could use some help from you guys that are familiar with breeding.

What do you need to do to make this breed?



Xant’hippe
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by Xant’hippe »

:) Sympathy with the difficulties. I've done some breeding as well, and I know about some of the disappointments and frustrations. Ardennais is not an easy breed! I have succeeded with Baladi and think that one is easier.

Example: HorseLady72 bred two foundation horses, Robbin' (Forest Horse stallion) to No Help (Belgian mare), three times. One, stallion Little Rob, came out Ardennais; the others, mare Daddies Little Surprise and stallion SideKick, came out (Belgian x Forest Horse). (I own SideKick.)

Here's what I can see using the Ardennais book and the pedigrees. In general, even though you followed the breed recipe exactly, neither filly has the right specifications for Ardennais. When the horse will be the first generation in its line, it has to satisfy the breed requirements for Height, Body Size, and Type (4/5); better, Build as well (5/5). (In succeeding generations the computer looks more at the pedigree. I've seen horses labeled Arabian or Thoroughbred that are inches high!)

Filly #485122 rates 2/5 for Ardennais.
Height Mature Range 14.2hh to 16.3hh
This horse is 11.0hh [Rating Poor]
Rating is based on estimated mature height.
Build Medium Heavy to Very Heavy
Your Horse is Medium Heavy [Rating Poor] (not Medium Heavy enough I guess!)
Build is 75% Type and 25% Body Size. Build is a reference, but not a requirement for creating a new breed.
Body Size 80% to 100%
Your Horse is 80.55% [Rating Good]
Body Size describes the overall bulk of the horse.
Type 70% to 90% Pony Type
Your Horse is 63% Pony Type [Rating Poor]
Type is the description of leg length to body length.

Lady Serendipity is 4/5 for Ardennais: too tall, otherwise within ranges. General is 2/5, however: in contrast, only his height is within Ardennais range. He's too lightly built, his body size is 4.5% too low, and he's way off specifications in Type: 68% Horse compared to 70-90% Pony. Maybe the computer could have "chosen" to make the filly more like her dam; I don't know exactly how far the parameters and possibilities stretch.

Filly #485123 rates 0/5 (N/A) for Ardennais:
Height Mature Range 14.2hh to 16.3hh
This horse is 11.0hh [Rating Poor]
Rating is based on estimated mature height.
Build Medium Heavy to Very Heavy
Your Horse is Medium Heavy [Rating Poor] (again, not Medium Heavy enough?! They never quantify this.)
Build is 75% Type and 25% Body Size. Build is a reference, but not a requirement for creating a new breed.
Body Size 80% to 100%
Your Horse is 76.5% [Rating Poor]
Body Size describes the overall bulk of the horse.
Type 70% to 90% Pony Type
Your Horse is 69% Pony Type [Rating Poor] (ouch! just missed it by 1%)
Type is the description of leg length to body length.

Lady Belladonte is 3/5 for Ardennais: too tall, and misses Body Size by 1.7% on the low side. Gray Grenade is much like General in being the right height, but too light in Build, too small in Body Size, and too much Horse in Type. (BTW, the crossover point for Horse to Pony type is 50%: 100% Horse to 50-50 to 100% Pony.)

Something I've noticed with Forest Horses is that there seems to be some variation in overall body characteristics: they usually evaluate as "Medium Horse" type, but some are built more like saddle horses (on the lighter side); others have larger bodies, and shorter and thicker legs, bringing them closer to Pony/Draft.

Here's an example of a chunkier Forest Horse stallion. He's 55% Horse Type with 70% Body Size.
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/478002 Hercules
He still is N/A for Ardennais, but closer than General or Gray Grenade.

Another one, Stormblazer, also 55% Horse type, with 71% body size:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/201789
Both, like SideKick, have 0% COI and foundation parents.

It is also valid to breed a (Belgian x Forest Horse) to another, or to (Forest Horse x Belgian); or (FH x B) x (FH x B). The order doesn't matter. SideKick has an Ardennais daughter, Firecracker, out of this mare, Red Rose:
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/351447
Regrettably, "retired" horses can't be evaluated, but she must have been at least 4/5. Her parents were foundation, too.

Exhausted yet? I am -- that's about all I know about Ardennais. ;) I hope some other breeders will give information also.

Best wishes!
MysticSinZ
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by MysticSinZ »

Thank you so much Xant’hippe you are so kind to go to the trouble of posting all this for me. It is very much appreciated! I might have to read it a few more times to get it...LOL
The hardest thing will be finding the horses or breeding the horses that meet the criteria. The majority of the Forest Horses I have went through on this game do not meet those requirements.
If I am understanding you right each horse must meet the criteria for an Ardennais, both the Belgian and the Forest Horse in order to make the breed...correct?
Thanks you and anyone else that will post their knowledge here. :D
MysticSinZ
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by MysticSinZ »

I have this horse here that is an overall 5 using the Ardennais book

I would have better luck using him, but would need a female Forest Horse that meets the criteria for Ardennais.
Then I would have a better chance of making the breed. Long sigh :arrow: at finding one. :mrgreen:
equagga
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by equagga »

I achieved Ardennais. . .only after breeding purebred Forest Horses and Belgians for many, many generations, focusing on higher size (especially in the Forest Horses) and keeping height low (especially Belgians). Eventually I wound up with a shorter, big-bodied Forest Horse stud. He actually was not a 5 star Ardennais, but his size was close enough, and while his type was low, my Belgians had a pretty high type, so in combination with sizable Belgian mares who weren't too tall, he produced multiple Ardennais. The Forest Horses were the tricky half of the equation.
I outcrossed those with more Belgians, bred them back together, and now I have a few generations of purebred Ardennais. I'm still working the kninks out of them. . .they're trying to revert back to Forest-horse like builds. . .but they at least exist, and after the amount of time it took me to produce them, I am glad for that.

Here is my founder Ardennais; http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/451234 : you might like to look at the profile of his parents. Alas, we can't run evaluations on retired horses, but I have scoring descriptions in notes for a lot of my horses. (The oldest don't have them because I didn't know what I was doing at first.) The scores are relative to the breed eval and grouped by green/red, so for Ardennais, a score of G [S = high] means that horses' size is at the upper range of the size in the breed book.
You could also try to see how many generations it took me to get the darn Forest Horses up to snuff but that, honestly, might crash your browser. If you aren't like me, and determined to produce everything without outcrossing to other peoples' horses, outcrossing to someone else's Forest Horses might be a very good idea, or maybe you might buy a good mare outright.
MysticSinZ
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by MysticSinZ »

I can see this is a very difficult task... Wake Up Call (Ardennais) and A Beat Late (Ardennais) are Overall 5 Studs :D
I see that the Forest Horse is the most difficult to achieve. Thank you for the information.
Xant’hippe
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by Xant’hippe »

:) Hello again.
:o :oops: Looking back at my very long post ... I see it can be thought that "the closer both are to the New Breed in *every* way, the better." I did not quite mean that. Note that HorseLady72 and silverite both succeeded in creating Ardennais in very few generations. While there is a random factor in the computer (so we all have to hope to be lucky), there is also the ability to "balance traits" -- try to get parents as close as, but if not, try to bracket the range.

My Baladi filly came from a too-short Arabian stallion and a too-tall North African Barb mare. That's what I mean by bracketing.

Some of the FH sires I was referring to (Robbin', SideKick's sire, and Knighted, Firecracker's dam's sire) have been "retired" and the memorial page loses key information: not only the Breeder's Report, but the data you need to access to do an evaluation: Build, Type (horse/pony), and Body Size (0-100%). The page cannot even [re-]create an image but must rely on what is already in the Gallery. No one ever took Knighted's picture. We can be sure that he was 15.3 hh and that he sired 4, 2 stallions and 2 mares, all not-Ardennais (B x FH) and all out of the same foundation Belgian, Rosette. (Their daughter, Red Rose, was bred to SideKick and *that* resulted in Firecracker, the Ardennais.)

That was months ago in game time. To give you some idea of how long ago in horse generations:
Robbin' 118188 (Foundation; retired)
No Help 118149 (Foundation; mare; alive)
SideKick (B x FH) 121151 (still alive, stud fee $300)
Little Rob (actual Ardennais) 118235 (still alive, 5/5 Ardennais, stud fee $400)
Daddies Little Surprise (B x FH) 124113 (mare; alive)

Knighted 342689 (Foundation; retired)
Rosette 342129 (Foundation; retired)
Red Rose (B x FH) 342851 (retired)
Firecracker (Red Rose's daughter, real Ardennais) 351447 (retired)

We're getting close to horse #500000 if not there already! It's interesting, though, that Firecracker's dam and her parents were so much "younger" in game time.

So breeding with comparatively few generations isn't impossible but can take some patience and luck. Note that Little Rob was a 1-in-3. Actually, I know HorseLady72 was also aiming for Norman Cob which requires (B x FH) or (FH x B), not Ardennais. A horse of that crossbreed can still be useful in breeding. SideKick and his close relatives are all champions.

:D Sir Montague and his dam are excellent performers too -- good work! (BTW he's Sable Champagne. Solar Power, his paternal grandsire, is Gold Cream -- a form of Champagne.)
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... =13&t=2158 (the HWO color guide has been improved since its earlier posting.)
Individual Sable Champagne portrait:
http://s70.photobucket.com/user/Totina_ ... a.png.html

Interesting he comes that close to Ardennais!

Of course the Breed Recipes are a form of player challenge. :twisted: ;)
MysticSinZ
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by MysticSinZ »

Thank you for all the information and a big thanks for the compliment on Sir Montague.
I have had pretty good success with breeding Belgian horses and have had great horses.
I am proud of my Belgians, all have been Champs. I have some very Heavy Belgians coming up that I hope to have success with. My problem is not wanting to let go of any of them..lol I am determined and yes the challenge is what makes it interesting. I am working on getting my training skills higher so I don't age the horses so fast to get them fully trained.

Oh and this one is from Solar Power also, I think he is going to do well!



Thanks on the color correction, I knew I had it wrong, just never changed it... colors can be an issue for me as well.
I got several that I am confused on that I need to post in the color guide thread and see what they are. :D

Thank goodness for the help of all the kind people on here! I appreciate each and everyone of you! :D
sayvegirl
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by sayvegirl »

i have a mare
Aakey
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Re: Making a new Breed of Ardennais

Post by Aakey »

I tried to get an adernnais horse, and after crossing a Belgian mare with a forest horse stallion, the foal continues to fail on the eval. He has 17 hh and almost 2000 ibs and he's only 1 year and 2 months.
I do not know if I did the crossing correctly or if I should cross Belgian stallion with the forest horse mare instead, to achieve the breed I intend.
Please, help.
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