Can someone help me create a type guide?

[Sunken Hill Stables]

Hey. When I say type I mean visual attributes minus the color. So like type of tail, length of tail, tail thickness (same for mane and feathers). Also head profiles, neck size, and even height. I want to know what's recessive and what's dominant. I know uptails are recessive... I read that somewhere. But, I can't find much else and since I'm also trying to breed a certain type it's kinda frustrating.

I thought we could create Genotypes like UT for uptails. Just something else making it easier for breeders to reach their goals.

I feel like it's something that's missing from the game... Unless it's just me that's missing it lol.

Any people interested in helping?

[BlackOak2]

Hey. When I say type I mean visual attributes minus the color. So like type of tail, length of tail, tail thickness (same for mane and feathers). Also head profiles, neck size, and even height. I want to know what's recessive and what's dominant. I know uptails are recessive... I read that somewhere. But, I can't find much else and since I'm also trying to breed a certain type it's kinda frustrating.

I thought we could create Genotypes like UT for uptails. Just something else making it easier for breeders to reach their goals.

I feel like it's something that's missing from the game... Unless it's just me that's missing it lol.

Any people interested in helping?

I have a lot of different projects going right now, so I can't partner up with yet another. However, I can help to define certain things. I have quite a few notes on a lot, so I can confirm certain things (or at least give you some additional insight).
We all could offer what we know. It might be easier for you to ask the direct question so you can receive a direct answer.

long tails and manes are recessive, but the gene is an incomplete dominant (that's where mid-length comes in)
I believe thick manes or pony manes is recessive
feathers are incomplete recessive, but there's something else going on there I haven't looked into yet.

Other things like the head profiles neck sizes and height are less about being dominant versus recessive and much more about how much of the gene you have. They cup analogy comes in very handy to explain this. The mare and the stallion have so much height they can pass on between a certain minimum amount and a certain maximum amount. They each pass on half of these genes and combined together, these genes add up to a certain filling on the cup. This includes roman and dish noses, large versus tiny hooves, square versus rectangle body shapes (they can be separated from pony and horse builds, although there is co-influence in these), the look of light build versus medium build and medium build versus heavy build (again there's a co-influence for horse and pony types, but they can be separate as well, within degrees), long versus short ears... and the list goes on.

There are other notes I recently picked up:
Long necks are found in turks and arabs (I do not know dominance)
Short necks are found in tarpans, shelands, prze, belgians and forests (again, I don't know dominance)

And these we already know... they work more like the way height works
Uphill builds are found in forests, NAB and tarpans
Downhill builds are found also in NAB and turks.

If you have something specific you're working toward, we as a community may be able to steer you more toward what you should look for. If you're certainly looking to create a breeder's assistance guide, go for it. But it'll take you down a long road of trials. It is a big project defining certain gene workings.

The game in general isn't like a turn on/turn off gene switch, a lot of it is mixing of the genes that are there. But there is also a lot we don't yet know, so if you choose to aid in defining them, it may certainly make some things easier.

I will certainly assist in answering the questions I can.

[Sunken Hill Stables]

All of this information is amazing! Thank you for taking the time to write it all out! I want to help the community as much as I can so I'm going to try and figure out a guide. However long it takes. If people just want to post their own observations go a head. Everything helps. I'll probably start on the hair since that seems a bit more predictable.

long tails and manes are recessive, but the gene is an incomplete dominant (that's where mid-length comes in)
I believe thick manes or pony manes is recessive
feathers are incomplete recessive, but there's something else going on there I haven't looked into yet.

This helps me out so much in my own breeding program you have no idea lol. Is it the same with uptails? I've noticed that I'll get what I call a medium uptail. Just a little bump. So is the uptail incomplete dominant as well?

Also. I *think* manes and tails may grow at different rates. Have you noticed this? It's something I've sort of observed. Like a horse I'm pretty sure has a med. tail. I go back cycles later and all of a sudden pops out full length. I think the hair also stops growing around age six?

About the cup... Let me just make sure I understand. So, say I breed a straight profile to a concave. Both parents have their individual genes (water in cup). Each parent pours a random amount into baby cup. Foal can end up with anything with in the range of genes provided by the parent? So, this is something not predictable if you breed two different head types? Also with height?

Take these two as far as height. Both are full brothers but one is 13h and the other is 20h... Seriously. The Mom was a bit unpredictable as far as height but, a great stat producer. These were just the weirdest two. I didn't get another 13h or 20h directly out of her. So, is it possible that the 13h horse could produce a 20h and vise versa? Any way to predict height? Or other types like this?
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/928129
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/928285

This is the type I'm currently working on.


Though I would prefer him at 15h. Also profile and color doesn't matter. Mostly the tail. I'm going to try breeding it up into TBs then TWHs... Trying to get close to Old Fashioned Walking Horses. I got my work cut out for me lol. But, great info to collect for a guide!

Again, thank you SO much. Really helpful information!

[BlackOak2]

All of this information is amazing! Thank you for taking the time to write it all out! I want to help the community as much as I can so I'm going to try and figure out a guide. However long it takes. If people just want to post their own observations go a head. Everything helps. I'll probably start on the hair since that seems a bit more predictable.

long tails and manes are recessive, but the gene is an incomplete dominant (that's where mid-length comes in)
I believe thick manes or pony manes is recessive
feathers are incomplete recessive, but there's something else going on there I haven't looked into yet.

This helps me out so much in my own breeding program you have no idea lol. Is it the same with uptails? I've noticed that I'll get what I call a medium uptail. Just a little bump. So is the uptail incomplete dominant as well?

Also. I *think* manes and tails may grow at different rates. Have you noticed this? It's something I've sort of observed. Like a horse I'm pretty sure has a med. tail. I go back cycles later and all of a sudden pops out full length. I think the hair also stops growing around age six?

About the cup... Let me just make sure I understand. So, say I breed a straight profile to a concave. Both parents have their individual genes (water in cup). Each parent pours a random amount into baby cup. Foal can end up with anything with in the range of genes provided by the parent? So, this is something not predictable if you breed two different head types? Also with height?

Take these two as far as height. Both are full brothers but one is 13h and the other is 20h... Seriously. The Mom was a bit unpredictable as far as height but, a great stat producer. These were just the weirdest two. I didn't get another 13h or 20h directly out of her. So, is it possible that the 13h horse could produce a 20h and vise versa? Any way to predict height? Or other types like this?
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/928129
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/928285

This is the type I'm currently working on.

Though I would prefer him at 15h. Also profile and color doesn't matter. Mostly the tail. I'm going to try breeding it up into TBs then TWHs... Trying to get close to Old Fashioned Walking Horses. I got my work cut out for me lol. But, great info to collect for a guide!

Again, thank you SO much. Really helpful information!

Okay...
High Tail versus low tail.
I think you already noticed that the only one in our AC that offers a high tail is the arabian breed. All the others offer a tail base that is nominally hanging straight down. But... they work the same way as the cup, not an on switch/off switch.

To explain the cup further... (we'll use height)
Let's say our example mare is 14 hands.
And our example stallion 19 hands.
If we assume that they're fresh out of the AC (meaning they have very limited hidden genes)...
Mare can (assuming genes) offer as little 10 hands but also as much as 16 hands.
Stallion can (also assuming genes) offer as little as 16 hands but as much as 21 hands.
They each give half of their height genes into the cup... mare gives 10 hands, stallion gives 18 hands... the foal does not come out as either 10 or 18 hands, but offers the average between the two, our foal cup comes out as 14 hands.
Now, I do not know for certain this is the way it's exactly handled, but it offers insight into how it can happen. One parent does not override the genes of the other parent, they can either complement or balance out each other.

The problems start when you have hidden genes. For instance (although I'm not too sure about it), there are players that offer the pony gene for height, which dwarfs the horse. Meaning that even if you breed an 18 inch pony to a 21 hand giant, you can only get either the giant offspring or the min-sized pony offspring. In this case the pony gene would be an on switch/off switch gene. If it does exist the way it's (supposed) to be stated to, I don't know whether it's just one gene, or handled as a dominant or recessive. (the only reason I have reservations believing it is because I can't determine or define where the cutoff height for it is, but that's my problem)

So back to the high-carriage tails. If you want to get the maximum amount of height (assuming there is a max we can attain and it's not unmarked), you'll need to find pure genes that have the ability to increase in size and not decrease. (think of the cup again) Each horse for these cup-genes has a maximum and minimum they can offer to their offspring (outside of what they already show), this maximum and minimum may be anywhere between, above or below (and including) what they show. So your best bet for finding the 'best' genes you want, is to go for the maximum expression for the gene you can find (keeping within your own personal parameters). If you want the maximum expression of tail carriage, then find an AC arabian with the highest tail carriage that the AC has to offer (remember the limited amount of hidden genes). There are some AC arabians that really carry their tails high. After that, measure your offspring (with a number of different combinations) and choose the one that offers an image that is better than the worse parent and is almost or as good as the second. You help yourself toward selecting for the genes that offer you what you're looking for while weeding out the carriages on the lowest end.
For all cup-genes, this is possibly the only way to achieve certain goals. You'll get a number of genes produced and by culling out those that show what you don't want, you only end up keeping what you do want. This is also where inbreeding can really help. If you only keep and breed to one another, the genes you do want, eventually you'll no longer have any of the genes you don't want. However... then you can inadvertently breed in genes that you later regret not paying attention to.

Now for the mane and tail lengths. When I first started (and indeed all of mine at the time developed like this), I too thought that all the mane and tail and feather lengths filled in by about five years. Only height ends at five years. Mane, tail, feathers and age-linked developmental colors can grow in very early (like the first 6 months) to very late (sometimes not fully coming in until 18 years, that's mostly color-related however). Usually the mane or the tail will give away what length it is earlier than the other.

You do have the cup about right. The parents do pour a random amount into it, but it's a random amount on what they have. For instance no hidden genes for a height below 10 hands on both parents cannot produce a foal below that height.

It is a little unusual that the two brothers are such different heights, but it's more unusual that one was 20 hands. However, there is a lot of swinging in sizes in the generations preceding the parents. It's not out of their ability obviously. So now you know that this matching of parents can offer every size from 13 to 20 hands. Which also means that each one of these brothers has the genes to also produce these sizes. The real question is, what minimum and maximum outside of these heights do they now offer?
The only real way to help predict an outcome is to have generations of similar genes (or inbreed them until they're all the same). One of the general rules that helps with this is to understand that a taller stallion will allow taller offspring and a shorter mare will allow shorter offspring. If you switch the two, breeding a shorter stallion to a taller mare, your offspring should be more regularized between the two.
The same goes for breeder's report abilities where the colts are generally a little better than the fillies.

So in conclusion... If you're used to seeing what you want (by practicing your eye), it gets easier to see positives and negatives just by looking at prospective studs and broodmares and their direct parents. Until then, to avoid the unknown hidden genes, stick to the AC horses. At the very least, it limits what they hide. That doesn't mean you need to purchase from the AC, just keep to AC's from the market and direct first generation descendants.

Make goals for the end result. You can work on all of them at once or one at a time (it takes time either way). If you find the most extreme toward what you want, just be aware that it may over-produce toward what you intend (very dished faces can get a bit weird looking very quickly).

[Sunken Hill Stables]

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Hey. I've been sick and I cracked a rib coughing yesterday (did not even know that was possible). I need to take a few days until it's comfortable to sit at my computer. I usually play on my phone but was keeping the information there. I also didn't want you to think I just gave up or something. I still have a few more questions for you lol. Sorry about that but thanks for putting up with me!

[BlackOak2]

.

Hey. I've been sick and I cracked a rib coughing yesterday (did not even know that was possible). I need to take a few days until it's comfortable to sit at my computer. I usually play on my phone but was keeping the information there. I also didn't want you to think I just gave up or something. I still have a few more questions for you lol. Sorry about that but thanks for putting up with me!

That's life for you.
No worries, take your time and I'm sure I'll still be around whenever you get back on.

Besides, there's plenty of players and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has notes on these things.

On a personal note, I did know you can crack a rib coughing (there are a number of underlying conditions that can allow that to happen besides just coughing too much or coughing too hard). I'm sure you're under the care of a physician... take the meds, cough suppressants... so on... and we'll see you regular again soon enough.

Smile... and don't laugh...
...
Don't laugh!

[Sunken Hill Stables]

Hey. I've been sick and I cracked a rib coughing yesterday (did not even know that was possible). I need to take a few days until it's comfortable to sit at my computer. I usually play on my phone but was keeping the information there. I also didn't want you to think I just gave up or something. I still have a few more questions for you lol. Sorry about that but thanks for putting up with me!

That's life for you.
No worries, take your time and I'm sure I'll still be around whenever you get back on.

Besides, there's plenty of players and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has notes on these things.

On a personal note, I did know you can crack a rib coughing (there are a number of underlying conditions that can allow that to happen besides just coughing too much or coughing too hard). I'm sure you're under the care of a physician... take the meds, cough suppressants... so on... and we'll see you regular again soon enough.

Smile... and don't laugh...
...
Don't laugh!

You made me laugh lol. Last night I got the hiccups... That was the worst haha. Felt like I was being hit over and over in the ribs with a hockey stick or something.

I got a really bad cold that caused lung damage. It's weird because my lungs were pretty much healed when when I cracked the rib. So, a 1 week cold turned into 3 weeks after lung damage and now I have another 3 weeks before my rib is healed. Cough drops are not just for convenience! lol

I'm still around just won't be doing much other than entering some of my horses in shows. I'm a bit loopy lol. Hopefully it'll feel better sooner than the doc said.

[BlackOak2]

You made me laugh lol. Last night I got the hiccups... That was the worst haha. Felt like I was being hit over and over in the ribs with a hockey stick or something.

I got a really bad cold that caused lung damage. It's weird because my lungs were pretty much healed when when I cracked the rib. So, a 1 week cold turned into 3 weeks after lung damage and now I have another 3 weeks before my rib is healed. Cough drops are not just for convenience! lol

I'm still around just won't be doing much other than entering some of my horses in shows. I'm a bit loopy lol. Hopefully it'll feel better sooner than the doc said.

Ha! Sorry... I suppose my sadist-like side is showing.

It has been proven that happiness (laughter)... up-beat attitude does help in recovery.

I am one who believes that natural healing does have a good impact...
If you can stomach it, try hot lemon water (or warm, depends on how raw your throat is), with honey. Both lemon and honey will act as throat coaters. Plus the warmth may help soothe the sore muscles around your chest.

Sugar to taste, if it needs more sweetener, but honey does a good job.
Just a note though, honey melts better in hot water than lukewarm. Too much lemon taste can overpower the drink and might make you cough from the strength. It's supposed to be like lemon flavored water.

I found that cough drops helped me less than I wanted. It's either the nasty, liquid cough medicine or nothing. I used to flip coins.

[Sunken Hill Stables]

You made me laugh lol. Last night I got the hiccups... That was the worst haha. Felt like I was being hit over and over in the ribs with a hockey stick or something.

I got a really bad cold that caused lung damage. It's weird because my lungs were pretty much healed when when I cracked the rib. So, a 1 week cold turned into 3 weeks after lung damage and now I have another 3 weeks before my rib is healed. Cough drops are not just for convenience! lol

I'm still around just won't be doing much other than entering some of my horses in shows. I'm a bit loopy lol. Hopefully it'll feel better sooner than the doc said.

Ha! Sorry... I suppose my sadist-like side is showing.

It has been proven that happiness (laughter)... up-beat attitude does help in recovery.

I am one who believes that natural healing does have a good impact...
If you can stomach it, try hot lemon water (or warm, depends on how raw your throat is), with honey. Both lemon and honey will act as throat coaters. Plus the warmth may help soothe the sore muscles around your chest.

Sugar to taste, if it needs more sweetener, but honey does a good job.
Just a note though, honey melts better in hot water than lukewarm. Too much lemon taste can overpower the drink and might make you cough from the strength. It's supposed to be like lemon flavored water.

I found that cough drops helped me less than I wanted. It's either the nasty, liquid cough medicine or nothing. I used to flip coins.

Haha don't worry! Your good. Laughter is important and I'm also pretty natural about healing as well. When I'm sick (like a cold) I rarely take any medications. Just drink a lot of teas. Especially coughing as it help to clear out your lungs. I should have tried to treat it because it was a dry cough but, I did not expect this weird domino effect. Live and learn right? Thanks for the drink. I'm going try try it tomorrow. I have honey and water just no lemons lol. I've been drinking honey in tea. But, I also know super simple is usually the best.

[BlackOak2]

Haha don't worry! Your good. Laughter is important and I'm also pretty natural about healing as well. When I'm sick (like a cold) I rarely take any medications. Just drink a lot of teas. Especially coughing as it help to clear out your lungs. I should have tried to treat it because it was a dry cough but, I did not expect this weird domino effect. Live and learn right? Thanks for the drink. I'm going try try it tomorrow. I have honey and water just no lemons lol. I've been drinking honey in tea. But, I also know super simple is usually the best.

Lemon juice works just fine also.
It is weird like that. When I was going to school, I had a friend that would chew her nails(and when we were all young we all do at some point). Well, one day she came in from over break and her finger was all swelled up. She said, well... ya know... you always bite your nails. I got an infection in it this time. I'm on antibiotics.

Sometimes chaos rules, huh.