Dun or not?

[BlackOak2]

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Aaagh the doubt is setting in. I've found another sneaky dun in the shouldn't-have-dun-anymore pile, which is making me doubt all of the ones I'd previously thought had been confidently screened for it.

My theory for this one is that it's the sire's fault, which is a bummer because he's one that I'd originally put in this thread some time ago and we'd both thought was dun-free.


Any thoughts in this case would (as always) be super appreciated. And later I might put up a few more in here to double-check my work.

That's a stumper isn't it?
I'd have to agree, that it's most likely the stud.
Flaxen must have hidden that dorsal stripe. Now that he's a little older, I can just make out a stripe there.
But only because his coat has changed. His 1, 2 and even 3 year pics in his gallery don't appear to have it, but at 4... maybe just appearing, then again, maybe I'm just starting to see it, because NOW (at 13) his coat has changed enough to show something.

But to back us up... even now, if I had seen him as a yearling, I would have still said that he didn't have dun. I would be in the same predicament as you at this point (and with my pangare, I am).

The good thing, is that he's thrown non-dun's for you already.
Or appears to have.

Knowing this, I'd question the offspring of these two daughters of his: Thumping Bullet & Bull Charm.

Maybe I'm imagining it, but perhaps... perhaps, I'm seeing the same slight appearance of that dorsal on them as well...
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1866768
http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1882930

His other offspring appear to be clear. *Appear* being the operative word.

That's such a nice dun expression you appear to have bred in... Yes, meant kind of sarcastically and sadly because that's not your intention.
*Sigh*

The trials and tribulations of breeding.

[stickers]

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Haha! Thank you for checking on his offspring as well. That's very thoughtful (and helpful!). It's also reassuring to know that the sire's expression of dun really was basically as sneaky as it possibly could have been.

Sometime either tonight or tomorrow, I'll go over my current stock, pull together a list of horses I would love double-checked, and will post them here to see if you (or anyone else) can help me track down any other sneaky duns still in the mix.

And yeah... it is sad that this faint dun really is sort of lovely. Like smooth peanut butter.

[BlackOak2]

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Haha! Thank you for checking on his offspring as well. That's very thoughtful (and helpful!). It's also reassuring to know that the sire's expression of dun really was basically as sneaky as it possibly could have been.

Sometime either tonight or tomorrow, I'll go over my current stock, pull together a list of horses I would love double-checked, and will post them here to see if you (or anyone else) can help me track down any other sneaky duns still in the mix.

And yeah... it is sad that this faint dun really is sort of lovely. Like smooth peanut butter.

I'm sure you fully understand when I say, I know how you feel.
I have a type of pangare wandering in my leopard herd right now that doesn't show up until well AFTER they varnish at 15 years. Really evil, it is! so sad...
In your case as well, the non-progressing sooty is helping to hide the dun expression as much as it's helping as the horse ages. Could we see it without the sooty at 1 year? Probably not.
Of course, this could mean taking all of your masked horses (from possible leopard... also from the different colored bays that are bay variations and not dun mask) and weaning them out. You'd be left with one type of color. Removing the pangare might help define the dun as well, but at this point, you've already bred out the other markings, so likely not help as well.

Those cryptic's are downright evil! I tell ya!
We'll take a closer look, see if we can define better duns from non-duns.

Apparently, I'm on a smiley kick today...

[BlackOak2]

...

I just thought of something.
The only problem is that bays and browns overpower blacks, but, if you breed a dun-suspected horse to a black horse (throwing a black foal), a black foal that carries dun, will always be grullo. It will look distinctly different from a black horse.
Plus, if you breed it to a graying black horse and the foal inherits both the graying gene and comes out black, that foal will already have it's adult coat as a newborn.

Just perhaps this may be easier to distinguish between suspected carriers and those with at least one clean gene.

That being said, it depends on your horses not offering at least one of their agouti genes.

[stickers]

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So... I ended up going through my whole project in a fit of madness (we're packing up our apartment all day and night this weekend so I'm overtired and feeling crazy) and I'd started to put them into categories... but, in the end, every single one ended up looking like possible dun to me, so these categories are mostly useless.

I don't expect anyone to look at each and every one of these guys, but it was helping me to have them all easily accessible in order to compare possible-dun expressions. So, here they all are, for now. If anything, I'm putting it here so I can easily click links and move between horses. I need to sleep and then be packing all during the day tomorrow and Monday, but I'll try to check back in or do a better job of sorting this mess when I have the energy for it.

Also, my friend donated their old laptop to me, so hopefully I'll have a better monitor to view these guys very soon!

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Stallions w/ probable dun
Thumping Bull: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1809537
Thunder Crown: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1809538

Stallions w/ hopefully no dun
Bull Orchestra: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1811178
Bullet Bull: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1854921
Charming Orchestra: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1897828

Old mares w/ hopefully no dun
Regal Doubt: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1837129
Regal Bully: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1837138
Super Bull: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1848827
Orchestra Song: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1851745
Bully Bull: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1854922
Thumping Bullet: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1866768

Mares w/ possible dun
Thumping Bullet http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1866768
Bull Charm http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1882930

Mares w/ hopefully no dun
Sullied Bull http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1896950
Crown Bull http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1897821

New generation w/ possible dun
Three Bull http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1897833
Bull Bully http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1897914
Doubtbul http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1901460

New generation w/ hopefully no dun
Bullsong http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1897514
Bully Orchestra http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1901459
Orchestra Bullet http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1901472

New generation w/ definite dun
Song Bull http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1897892

[BlackOak2]

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Take your time, as you know, it'll be here when you return.
But I feel your frustration. I've been in that position where everything starts to look like they have the one gene you don't want.

I've just looked through all of your horses in your list, and just like you, I'm seeing dun 'everywhere'.
It may be time to add new blood and I mean new as in fresh AC stock where there is limited unknown genes.

Arabians don't carry dun. I don't believe belgians do either.
If you locate a black one of these two breeds, it might do better for you then just staring at... is that a stripe???? It's a STRIPE!!! I know it is!

You are breeding into belgian blood, so (not knowing your specific project), it shouldn't do too much harm.

I'm going off the theory, for your line in this case, that all mask-like markings are dun (at least they could be) and I'm being aggressive with it (seeing as somehow your dun is still hanging on).
So this is the list that I see no mask and no indication of dorsal. Of the rest of them I didn't name... they're still potentials now I suppose.

Bullet Bull
Charming Orchestra
Regal Doubt
Orchestra Song

This list are affected by sooty, so I'm a little less sure about them, but again, I see no mask and no dorsal.

Bully Bull
Crown Bull
Bullsong
Orchestra Bullet

These two... pangare can do a really good job of hiding dun, even when it's not cryptic. But I still stand by the no mask and no dorsal.

Bully Orchestra
Sullied Bull

What frustration will we miss when genetic testing comes out????

[stickers]

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Goodness, thank you so much for going through all of those and giving your opinions. That's going to help a lot when I attack this project with a machete.

The ultimate goal of the project was to work back towards horses that have more tarpan/prze shape, so I'd been hoping to not bring in more belgian blood (because wow that height is really hard to breed back out again) and I'd really been hoping to finish this stage of the project in another generation or two... but I guess it comes down to whether I really want to get this cryptic dun out of here or not.

I did get a black colt that I'm waiting to see if he's dun or not, so maybe he can help figure things out?

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1902415

[BlackOak2]

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Goodness, thank you so much for going through all of those and giving your opinions. That's going to help a lot when I attack this project with a machete.

The ultimate goal of the project was to work back towards horses that have more tarpan/prze shape, so I'd been hoping to not bring in more belgian blood (because wow that height is really hard to breed back out again) and I'd really been hoping to finish this stage of the project in another generation or two... but I guess it comes down to whether I really want to get this cryptic dun out of here or not.

I did get a black colt that I'm waiting to see if he's dun or not, so maybe he can help figure things out?

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1902415

Producing a black foal in your own line might be the best then.
Yes, as long as this foal definitely doesn't have dun, then he should work out great in defining who has and who has not. Because unless the foal is BLACK, then it must have a dilution, in this case dun.
He certainly looks like a black boy, but I've had grullo foals born that were that dark.
Fingers crossed!

He is a single black carrier though (he'll 50/50 throw red with chestnuts). And if the agouti is doubled on the mares, it will always be agouti foals, not black... BUT! There's that butt it can certainly help a great deal.

Perhaps it's also a good pause to consider whether cryptic dun is worth breeding out for you. It's always easier to never breed it in, but you went down the same path I did... no I don't have it... oh, but that one does, and that one... and... that one... then you try to breed it out and develop expressions that are practically invisible... but breeding out generally reveals them...

I did give up on breeding out the pangare from the leopard herd. It's what it will be. If I see an expression of pangare I dump the offending horse, but otherwise, it's not noticeable, especially, in my case, underneath all those lovely spots!

In your case, at this level of dun expression, it's a gentle bleeding-type layer to their base color, just the same as sooty makes them a bit darker, this type of dun, makes them just a bit lighter.

Okay, so I gave you the positive, if you do decide it's too much work.

Then again, you could always start again and dump dun at the onset! Way too much work though, in my case. Likely you already trashed that idea as well.

[stickers]

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Unfortunately in my case, breeding out dun is kind of the entire point of the project, and I always need to incorporate some dun at the start, since Prze and Tarpans always have dun. So, I'm kind of stuck on this same track even if I started over. Might as well keep going from here, I suppose!

Right now my tentative plan is to cut breeding down to just the few that you think are the safest from dun (I agree with all the ones you picked) and see what offspring from them look like. Maybe doing some crossing with the black colt once he's old enough to help double-check the results.

I also have some foals already hanging around that are still waiting to hit their first birthday, so I'll probably throw them up in here once they're old enough to see what your two cents are with them too.

[BlackOak2]

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Unfortunately in my case, breeding out dun is kind of the entire point of the project, and I always need to incorporate some dun at the start, since Prze and Tarpans always have dun. So, I'm kind of stuck on this same track even if I started over. Might as well keep going from here, I suppose!

Right now my tentative plan is to cut breeding down to just the few that you think are the safest from dun (I agree with all the ones you picked) and see what offspring from them look like. Maybe doing some crossing with the black colt once he's old enough to help double-check the results.

I also have some foals already hanging around that are still waiting to hit their first birthday, so I'll probably throw them up in here once they're old enough to see what your two cents are with them too.

Sounds like a plan!
What is this... plan ZH3???