Sneaky Dun?

[stickers]

Returning from (yet another) ridiculously long hiatus and trying to pick up an old breeding project of mine, which is to try and weed sneaky dun 100% out of this bloodline. I'm testing some against Caspians to try and get subtle dun to show itself... and, as before, I need help spotting the signs.

A couple of these are pretty clear to me one way or the other (like the third and fourth ones,) but I would love feedback even on the ones that I feel pretty confident on, just to make sure. I don't know what it is about sneaky dun, but I swear I still miss most of what y'all can spot, so I would love some input on the latest batch who have hit a year old:

[Woodstock]

Returning from (yet another) ridiculously long hiatus and trying to pick up an old breeding project of mine, which is to try and weed sneaky dun 100% out of this bloodline. I'm testing some against Caspians to try and get subtle dun to show itself... and, as before, I need help spotting the signs.

A couple of these are pretty clear to me one way or the other (like the third and fourth ones,) but I would love feedback even on the ones that I feel pretty confident on, just to make sure. I don't know what it is about sneaky dun, but I swear I still miss most of what y'all can spot, so I would love some input on the latest batch who have hit a year old:

Personally I'm only seeing it pop up in a dorsal stripe on 1 and 3... I think the other 3 are clear of it showing from what I can see!

[stickers]

Personally I'm only seeing it pop up in a dorsal stripe on 1 and 3... I think the other 3 are clear of it showing from what I can see!

It's so hard for me to tell what is a dorsal stripe and what's just an artifact of the art on these guys sometimes. 3 seemed pretty dun to me, but I was less sure about 1. Can you tell which of their parents seem to be the culprits?

[Diamond Filly]

Personally I'm only seeing it pop up in a dorsal stripe on 1 and 3... I think the other 3 are clear of it showing from what I can see!

It's so hard for me to tell what is a dorsal stripe and what's just an artifact of the art on these guys sometimes. 3 seemed pretty dun to me, but I was less sure about 1. Can you tell which of their parents seem to be the culprits?

I think 3 is a little dun. But I'm not a color expert. His dam is a little light colored, but I don't think dun
Also 5, but that's weird because parents aren't dun. They do have some lighter colored ancestors though.

[BlackOak2]

...

You may want to breed yourself a dun-gene breeder. What I mean, is, get yourself an AC prze or tarpan (prze have the strongest dun genes, tarpans come in second). Get yourself an AC belgian then breed two generations. First will be hetro- for dun and the second, you'll be able to see if the baby is dun or not. If you try for a black AC, it'll be easier to see that second generation, if it pops black.

Then use that foal to cross to your suspect carriers. It should reset their cryptic dun genes to some degree. I just aged out all of my belgians for a pangare program. Had I had any left, I had done just this, for some other genes and had to breed out the dun. Would of sent them right over...

Anyway.

[Probably the monitor you use. Each monitor, even of the same type and release date, can show what we see on HWO differently from each other.]

I agree that 1 looks like dun, but neither parent seems to have any. Those fetlocks give him away though. After looking very closely at both parents, I'ma say it's the stallion, Bullsong. The mare's fetlocks are solid. But the stallion, hidden by that pangare, but along his back, maybe? there's a dorsal... and maybe a dorsal because the sooty is highlighting it. The mare, looks clear of dun.

I'm suspicious of the second one. Both a dorsal and slightly hint-at fetlocks... maybe? But I'm thinking that's the sire's coloration. This one seems absent of the body mask, so for now, no dun.

I agree with this one too. Third does appear dun, and that's a Bullsong offspring.

Fourth looks absent, another from Bullsong, but that does mean he's likely only carrying one dun gene.

Fifth appears clear as well. Both parents appear clear too.

[stickers]

You may want to breed yourself a dun-gene breeder. What I mean, is, get yourself an AC prze or tarpan (prze have the strongest dun genes, tarpans come in second). Get yourself an AC belgian then breed two generations. First will be hetro- for dun and the second, you'll be able to see if the baby is dun or not. If you try for a black AC, it'll be easier to see that second generation, if it pops black.

Then use that foal to cross to your suspect carriers. It should reset their cryptic dun genes to some degree. I just aged out all of my belgians for a pangare program. Had I had any left, I had done just this, for some other genes and had to breed out the dun. Would of sent them right over...

As always, thank you for your insights, BlackOak! You've provided so many of them over the years.

I'm confused about what you mean about breeding myself a dun-gene breeder, however. I'm not quite grasping the instructions, and how to use it once I have it. (And does it matter that these guys are all already half-Prze/Tarpan, as they're half Exmoor ponies?) So far, I've begun to use black AC Caspians to test them against (I think it'd been a suggestion of yours the last time I'd tried to work on this breeding program, back in the day), but I honestly can't remember why that had been the suggestion over other possibilities.

So, yes! Any further clarification or tips and tricks would be awesome.

[BlackOak2]

As always, thank you for your insights, BlackOak! You've provided so many of them over the years.

I'm confused about what you mean about breeding myself a dun-gene breeder, however. I'm not quite grasping the instructions, and how to use it once I have it. (And does it matter that these guys are all already half-Prze/Tarpan, as they're half Exmoor ponies?) So far, I've begun to use black AC Caspians to test them against (I think it'd been a suggestion of yours the last time I'd tried to work on this breeding program, back in the day), but I honestly can't remember why that had been the suggestion over other possibilities.

So, yes! Any further clarification or tips and tricks would be awesome.

I'm sure the caspians were suggested for something. Maybe the black color? I don't really remember. It could've been that they may have strong dun genes, but don't carry it themselves, so a safe bet for weeding out the dun in your herd. Eh... but that's not possible, Quick Guide by Ancient Breed says that they do have dun straight from the AC.
So, I don't recall either. -_-

Anyway. As you should remember (or will after this), dun isn't just 'there' or 'not there'. Dun can be displayed strongly or very gently and with a lot of extras (dorsal, ankles, neck, ears, etc.). And your herd is stuck in the cryptic version. So, in order to help bring dun-carriers out, you need to get a much stronger version in there.
If you think in a way, that dun is a buildable gene, meaning, you can build-upon it, for the strength (and thus go opposite, creating cryptics), all you really need to do, is find a horse with really strong dun characteristics.
And since you don't want the dun itself, you breed out the dun gene (and theoretically, keep intact the characteristics). So, dun (like many of our genes) is comprised of the actual display genes (DD, Dd) that makes us see the dun and then also the characteristics, that control how much or how little comes through.
Your herd can be described as either DD or Dd and having minimal characteristics.

So... take a prze or a tarpan, breed to a belgian and you'll have a foal that's guaranteed Dd (because all prze and all tarpans from the AC are guaranteed to be DD). Then take that foal and breed it back to the belgian and watch. If there's dun, rehome and try again, but if you see NO dun, then you have a foal with (theoretically) strong dun characteristics, but is genetically dd.

It should show any foals thereafter that are Dd, with stronger versions of dun, so weeding them out may be easier. However, you're also on your way to a dd herd anyway. I'd suggest you use the dd foal as a confirmation breeder. Meaning that any horse you suspect is a carrier of dun, you breed to the dd foal and see what pops up. If an obvious dun foal pops, then you know that the horse you suspect, IS a dun carrier.

Then there is one more point, however. If you take the dd foal and introduce it into your mainstream herd, since your main bloodline is already cryptic, it won't take more than a couple generations to undo all that nicely brilliant dun characteristics.

Did I lose you?

***
Maybe I can locate our older conversations about caspians and answer that question, at least.

[BlackOak2]

...

Found it.
Caspians = viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16310&hilit=caspian&start=40

You were trying for black arabians, because arabians are dun-free from the AC, but got inpatient with waiting for the blacks to pop up (they're rare), so went to black caspians instead. They're not dun-free, but the black coat can show dun quite well... usually. 'When black is not BLACK-black, then it's not just a black horse.'

[stickers]

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Ah! Yes that is much more clear now, and thanks for tracking down that old thread for me. The memories are slowly coming together, haha...

And I do understand more now, however, I imagine that getting a stronger dun gene in there might take considerably more generations that just one, as these guys are pretty darn close to: AC Belgian + AC powerful-dun-carrier, and might still stick me in the same problem I'm already in? There are only a few generations in there behind both their Belgian and their Prze/Tarpan (Exmoor) sides, and then when weeding out the obvious dun results, I was still left with all this cryptic dun.

Are there any factors that would make your suggestion much different from what had happened here? I'm willing to try giving it a shot if so; I do have access to a couple Mongolians elsewhere that I know have BIG dun markings.

[BlackOak2]

...

Ah! Yes that is much more clear now, and thanks for tracking down that old thread for me. The memories are slowly coming together, haha...

And I do understand more now, however, I imagine that getting a stronger dun gene in there might take considerably more generations that just one, as these guys are pretty darn close to: AC Belgian + AC powerful-dun-carrier, and might still stick me in the same problem I'm already in? There are only a few generations in there behind both their Belgian and their Prze/Tarpan (Exmoor) sides, and then when weeding out the obvious dun results, I was still left with all this cryptic dun.

Are there any factors that would make your suggestion much different from what had happened here? I'm willing to try giving it a shot if so; I do have access to a couple Mongolians elsewhere that I know have BIG dun markings.

It's kind of a downgrading-eye syndrome. When we start breeding, we're looking for certain things, in this case, dun. But when you see strong dun and weed them out, because we're looking for strong cases, we inevitably miss the weaker ones. Thus we 'favor' the weak types of dun. And as we go, culling out those that we see, and not actually 'seeing' the even weaker ones, we end up favoring cryptics.
This happens to all of us.

I suspect this is what happened in your case (and after rereading our earlier communications, that's what happened in my cryptic pangare as well).

You could, theoretically, still start over. And now that you know how to breed it out, work from base stock again and cull out any of those dun carriers. Arabs and prze would be a good start. And it would still be the two generation turnover. First gen would be Dd and then the second gen, you'd just have to cull out any dun that you see. When you get your dd second gen, make those your foundations.

That said... this's the fun with projects, getting frustrated, seeing some light, getting frustrated again... and repeat. Until we're all crazy!

I only suggest AC stock, because you know exactly the genes they can have and the ones they don't. If you start from a couple generations in, as long as you still know those genes, you should still be good-to-go. So, using the same prospect, and using a horse that you know doesn't have any dun at all, will still work. First gene, assume it is Dd and then second gene, back to the dun-absent horse, look for that dun. If it's empty, then you should have a dd horse, same as my suggestion before.