Palomino and one other question

[stickers]

Two quick questions from me today! First is whether this is palomino or dunalino (plus the graying around her eyes, I see)? I want to say palomino, but I don't actually work with breeds that carry dilutions very often... and after my experiences with cryptic dun, I'm hesitant to automatically write off any horse as definitely lacking dun.




My second question is about sooty dapples. I've been poking around various guide and info threads, and am I right in understanding that it seems like there are the two types of dapples: gray-based and sooty-based? One seemingly having a "subtractive" effect on black pigment, and the other having an "additive" effect? Are Turks the only ones who carry sooty-based dapples? The real-life version of Exmoor ponies occasionally show what seem to be sooty-based dapples, and so I would love to see if there's a way to emulate that look in-game, but I'm also thinking it might be way too difficult for me to pull off, haha.

[BlackOak2]

Two quick questions from me today! First is whether this is palomino or dunalino (plus the graying around her eyes, I see)? I want to say palomino, but I don't actually work with breeds that carry dilutions very often... and after my experiences with cryptic dun, I'm hesitant to automatically write off any horse as definitely lacking dun.


My second question is about sooty dapples. I've been poking around various guide and info threads, and am I right in understanding that it seems like there are the two types of dapples: gray-based and sooty-based? One seemingly having a "subtractive" effect on black pigment, and the other having an "additive" effect? Are Turks the only ones who carry sooty-based dapples? The real-life version of Exmoor ponies occasionally show what seem to be sooty-based dapples, and so I would love to see if there's a way to emulate that look in-game, but I'm also thinking it might be way too difficult for me to pull off, haha.

Graying Palomino.
I don't see any indications of dun.

When a foal is born with what looks like and adult coat and not a newborn coat, this is indicative of the 'graying' gene. Very easy for us to see.

There are actually three ways for us to get dapples. Gray and sooty are two, the third is silver paired with black.

Have you looked at the sooty guides I have linked in my quick-links? They pretty much go through all of it. Sooty Dapples are the subtractive form. The dapples in sooty appear as the horse darkens normally from sooty and the dappling spots prevents the sooty from darkening this areas. So, not exactly subtractive as much as it's a limiting effect.
The other two forms create a bleaching effect, making the dapples lose all of their color.

Turks are the only ones that can appear with dapples straight from the AC, but the really bright and brilliant genes for strong dapples is quite a bit harder to find. The gentle versions appear best on single cream coats (palomino and buckskin).

You can see some of them in these board pastures, they're not strong, but they exist.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/pasture/101474
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/pasture/101476

[stickers]

...

Oh, that's interesting about the newborn coats on grey horses! I didn't know that. That's so handy.

Yes I did take a look at the guide--but as I think I might have mentioned before, processing things I read don't always "click" as much as I'd like, haha. And thank you for clarifying about gray vs sooty vs silver; that clears up some of the confusion I'd been having. The silver gene had thrown me off some (I *might* have forgotten it existed). Also... haha, yes my subtractive vs additive wording was really confusing on my part. You explained it much better.

I'll definitely check out those pastures, as I'm trying to decide if this aspect of what I've observed in Exmoors is worth trying to add into the breed, or if it's going to be too hard to do without totally throwing the conformation off--especially if sooty dapples would have to come from Turks. Are we allowed to link to images off-site? I kind of wanted to ask if there was an analogue to this look in game, and if it is indeed sooty dapples.

[BlackOak2]

...

Oh, that's interesting about the newborn coats on grey horses! I didn't know that. That's so handy.

Yes I did take a look at the guide--but as I think I might have mentioned before, processing things I read don't always "click" as much as I'd like, haha. And thank you for clarifying about gray vs sooty vs silver; that clears up some of the confusion I'd been having. The silver gene had thrown me off some (I *might* have forgotten it existed). Also... haha, yes my subtractive vs additive wording was really confusing on my part. You explained it much better.

I'll definitely check out those pastures, as I'm trying to decide if this aspect of what I've observed in Exmoors is worth trying to add into the breed, or if it's going to be too hard to do without totally throwing the conformation off--especially if sooty dapples would have to come from Turks. Are we allowed to link to images off-site? I kind of wanted to ask if there was an analogue to this look in game, and if it is indeed sooty dapples.

Of course you're allowed to link off-site. For certain instances, I (myself) make notes that it's off-site linking, but nominally it's for guides and what-not that'll be looked at by a lot of people. For regular chat things, making note that it's off-site (really for anything) it's not required. Just a nicety for those that don't want to leave the site.

It may prove far harder than your initial project and [irritations] can sustain. I would suggest that you create a separate line that's just sooty dapples, perfect what you want and then only after you see the dapples you want, add them into the main line. In this way, you can add in only [one] horse's genetics at a time and control the outcome of the foal-look. Thus forcing you to inject multiple side-line (the sooty's) into your main line, but allowing you to control what you need.

This is the way I suggest anything, if your main line is a little... prone to being influenced.

Plus, making a side-line allows you to scrap it at any time that it's not doing what you want.

[stickers]

Haha... yes, that is very good advice. It will take me a while yet to finish my main goal of this herd, which I really need to solidly lock down before I get distracted by another side project, regardless of how tempting it is...

If I do eventually start up a side-line to see if I can bring in sooty dapples without having Turk genetics wreck the already tenuous Body Size ratings that Exmoors often get, this is the look I'd be aiming for:

Example 1 - Example 2 - Example 3 - Example 4 - Example 5

I don't know if sooty dapples on this site emulate any of these, and if it's only Turks who carry the genes for them? I don't know if I've ever really had dappled horses of any kind on here, so I have no experience with what's possible.

[BlackOak2]

Haha... yes, that is very good advice. It will take me a while yet to finish my main goal of this herd, which I really need to solidly lock down before I get distracted by another side project, regardless of how tempting it is...

If I do eventually start up a side-line to see if I can bring in sooty dapples without having Turk genetics wreck the already tenuous Body Size ratings that Exmoors often get, this is the look I'd be aiming for:


I don't know if sooty dapples on this site emulate any of these, and if it's only Turks who carry the genes for them? I don't know if I've ever really had dappled horses of any kind on here, so I have no experience with what's possible.

We're supposed to get fairly strong dappling from sooty on here, but it's ... let's say, difficult to find the right combination of AC horses to make it. Plus it's also another build-able type of gene. And, theoretically, all of the different shading we can have from sooty itself (topside-down, bottomside-up, half & half and the progressive as well as static), should also be able to show up in dapples. So you'll have all the unique shading of the sooty, with dapples only affecting the areas that the sooty affects.

The ones in the links I offered are all static and topside-down types.

***
Yes, after looking through those links of the exmoors, you should be able to accomplish all of them.

This one in particular:

Appears to be a different version though. Those dapples along the stomach-line, look more like the dapples that silver offers. But the horse doesn't appear to have silver (mane and tail are solid black). So I don't really know what's going on with him. That said, he does have sooty dapples fairly apparent on his neck. So he might have a couple of things going on.

But yeah, very doable in-game. With a bit of trial & error as well as mixing AC breeds together to find just those genes you're looking for... and finding them because not every AC horse has the genes you want.

***
I thought it was written somewhere in the sooty-links in my quicklinks, but I'm not immediately seeing it.

So I'll give you what I know, myself, from my notes.

Turks do have the dapple switch as well as sooty. So you will need one of these (remember not all turks will actually have the switch, and some that have it, may not show it).
Shetlands do have some genes for this, it appears it may be medium dapple strength. Mixing these two can create a stronger dappling.
Sooty switch is dominant. Luckily, you'll only need one for the dapples to show. And all the AC breeds carry (but not all the horses themselves) a slow dappling reveal. Only one breed (possible belgian or forest) has the fast-style. I say these two specifically, because when working with sooty itself, these two can soot-out really fast.
And you WILL need the sooty gene for any dapples to appear anyway. So having quick versions of sooty can help you hunt what you need, down.

I suspect the strong dappling is hidden in one of the off-breeds. Arabians, for example, don't sooty hardly at all.
Caspians are used for only a limited number of breeds.

People have worked with NAB's, I think, a lot, looking for sooty genes, but came up relatively empty. So I think they're nominally defunct for the hidden dappling gems.

Oh... and as I'm reading my notes... I come across this:

3 strength genes also in just that one master switch breed

So, it appears turks do have all three strength genes for dapples, but finding the strong versions may be really difficult. A rare existence, like a brown in AC arabians.

That pretty much exhausts my notes.

What I might suggest may be your best path for hunting sooty dapples, is a couple of random, pseudo-black forest horses and a number of turks. They don't need to be dappled for you to find the switch. In fact, if you can find a solid turk that doesn't have any sooty... you still have a 1 in 4 chance of that turk having the switch.

[stickers]

Turks do have the dapple switch as well as sooty. So you will need one of these (remember not all turks will actually have the switch, and some that have it, may not show it).
Shetlands do have some genes for this, it appears it may be medium dapple strength. Mixing these two can create a stronger dappling.
Sooty switch is dominant. Luckily, you'll only need one for the dapples to show. And all the AC breeds carry (but not all the horses themselves) a slow dappling reveal. Only one breed (possible belgian or forest) has the fast-style. I say these two specifically, because when working with sooty itself, these two can soot-out really fast.
And you WILL need the sooty gene for any dapples to appear anyway. So having quick versions of sooty can help you hunt what you need, down.

I suspect the strong dappling is hidden in one of the off-breeds. Arabians, for example, don't sooty hardly at all.
Caspians are used for only a limited number of breeds.

People have worked with NAB's, I think, a lot, looking for sooty genes, but came up relatively empty. So I think they're nominally defunct for the hidden dappling gems.
...
What I might suggest may be your best path for hunting sooty dapples, is a couple of random, pseudo-black forest horses and a number of turks. They don't need to be dappled for you to find the switch. In fact, if you can find a solid turk that doesn't have any sooty... you still have a 1 in 4 chance of that turk having the switch.

Ahh this is all really good stuff! (And yeah, the photo with the weird dappled tummy confused me too; glad it was as strange as I'd guessed, and whatever is going on there probably isn't represented in the genes of this game.)

So, I've worked with Caspians quite a lot in the past, and can't remember seeing dapples show up, and from what I remember, they have quite a bit of sooty all over the place. But, doesn't mean I just wasn't lucky enough to happen to pick up one with a dapple switch. Same with NABs when I'd mixed them with high-sooty Forests for WAB creation. To save myself some insanity, I'll probably not poke through those two breeds.

And... okay, trying to wrap my head around the rest of this. From what it sounds like, it's better to grab some Forests as well as Turks and/or Shetlands? Is that just so the babies show their dapples sooner? Otherwise, would just looking for Turks that are showing dapples in AC work, or do only the graying version of dapples show up at that age? Space (and PT) are scare resources for me, so I'm trying to figure what would be the most economical way to start.

[BlackOak2]

Ahh this is all really good stuff! (And yeah, the photo with the weird dappled tummy confused me too; glad it was as strange as I'd guessed, and whatever is going on there probably isn't represented in the genes of this game.)

So, I've worked with Caspians quite a lot in the past, and can't remember seeing dapples show up, and from what I remember, they have quite a bit of sooty all over the place. But, doesn't mean I just wasn't lucky enough to happen to pick up one with a dapple switch. Same with NABs when I'd mixed them with high-sooty Forests for WAB creation. To save myself some insanity, I'll probably not poke through those two breeds.

And... okay, trying to wrap my head around the rest of this. From what it sounds like, it's better to grab some Forests as well as Turks and/or Shetlands? Is that just so the babies show their dapples sooner? Otherwise, would just looking for Turks that are showing dapples in AC work, or do only the graying version of dapples show up at that age? Space (and PT) are scare resources for me, so I'm trying to figure what would be the most economical way to start.

It is relatively to extremely rare for a turk to appear in the AC already showing dapples. And, they'll only show dapples if also having sooty. You need both the sooty gene and also the dapples gene (the dapples switch gene) to show any dapples. If any horse is missing either one, they simply won't show.

A greater amount of turks (at least as I've seen) simply don't have the sooty gene itself. Thus their dappling is simply not seen.
I suggested the forests, because they sooty early and usually sooty really strongly. If you have a stronger sooty, the dapples are a little easier to see, otherwise, you might need to use a cream gene to track the dapples (buckskin and palomino).

Shetlands were offered up by ArcticTea who did a lot of early work with the dapples, what they were, how to find them, etc. In fact, I purchased one of their (at least one) production for those boarded horses I linked earlier.

I haven't checked to see if they're still around or not, they may be. You might be able to purchase directly from their stock.

So...
Quick and early sootiness (from forests)
PLUS
Dapple Switch (from turks)
CAN BUT MAY NOT result in dapples.

Of course, depending on what other genes they may have. I suggest you also wait until they're ten, to confirm that the first few you drop, actually do NOT have dapples.
Once you find the dapples, just favor those foals that show earlier and you'll be able to manually push your herd to show earlier.

There's usually quite a few turks floating around in the market. Unless you have a problem with using other people's lines (I usually do ), any that are AC or first gen, or even second gen should work for you. It may mean going through a long number of turks until you find the right combination.

So...
Get yourself a forest and a turk. First, breed the sootiness into the turk line. Once you have a foal that shows good sooty, you could (theoretically) not need any more forests. Unless you loose the sooty along the way.
Then just breed the foal back to the parent turk, or also get yourself another turk and keep bouncing from turk to turk until you find those dapples.

The nice thing about the shetlands, is you can sometimes find a nice AC shetland with a unique sooty-combination. They can be the downside-up type or the one that kind of just colors their back.

Anyway, for your first step, you need to develop those dapples. Once you have the dapples, you can play around with the different types of sooty until you find the combination of sooty you want (static, progressive, half & half, etc.). Then take the horse with the right sooty and breed it to your dappled horse and like magic! your frustration ends.

[stickers]

Get yourself a forest and a turk. First, breed the sootiness into the turk line. Once you have a foal that shows good sooty, you could (theoretically) not need any more forests. Unless you loose the sooty along the way.
Then just breed the foal back to the parent turk, or also get yourself another turk and keep bouncing from turk to turk until you find those dapples.

The nice thing about the shetlands, is you can sometimes find a nice AC shetland with a unique sooty-combination. They can be the downside-up type or the one that kind of just colors their back.

Anyway, for your first step, you need to develop those dapples. Once you have the dapples, you can play around with the different types of sooty until you find the combination of sooty you want (static, progressive, half & half, etc.). Then take the horse with the right sooty and breed it to your dappled horse and like magic! your frustration ends.

Easy-peasy, right??

A couple follow-up questions:
So, you said that Shetlands are one that can carry some of the less-faint dapple variations, as well as sooty, so does that mean that they're lacking the "switch" gene that I'd need to get from the Turks? Also, are there three separate genetic components needed (sooty, dapple variation gene, AND a dapple switch), or there only two (sooty, and a dapple variation gene that IS also the needed switch)?

[BlackOak2]

Easy-peasy, right??

A couple follow-up questions:
So, you said that Shetlands are one that can carry some of the less-faint dapple variations, as well as sooty, so does that mean that they're lacking the "switch" gene that I'd need to get from the Turks? Also, are there three separate genetic components needed (sooty, dapple variation gene, AND a dapple switch), or there only two (sooty, and a dapple variation gene that IS also the needed switch)?

Yeah! as easy-peasy as making sky-drop soup.

(sky-drop soup isn't a real thing.)

Anyway. I didn't do the work on these dapples, so what I offered was shared info I got from ArcticTea.

According to my own notes (likely copied straight from admin notes):

3 strength genes also in just that one master switch breed

^This statement means that Turks alone has the switch needed and also all of the strength genes.

But without sooty genes, themselves, you'll never see them.

So... from what I understand from the genes so far: Sooty is one gene, switch-on, switch-off. Sooty is controlled by a mass of other alleles including strength, area, how quick it progresses (if at all) and probably is a lay-over style as well as a complete style. Meaning that sooty can be 'whole body' as well as sooty can be 'selective body areas'. And all of those genes work in complement to each other.
Dapples work in a similar fashion. One switch-on, switch-off. The alleles of the dapples controls other things. I suspect that the sooty genes themselves control the other things and that the dapples is only switch on-off and strength.

So...
Sooty switch. <- get this from an AC breed that is NOT turk, I suggested forest for their psuedo-black
And alleles for sooty.
Dapples switch. <- get this from turks
Dapples strength. <- search for this among turks; gentle expression, medium expression, strong expression

I'd suggest the exmoors you linked are medium expression and maybe also gentle expression.

I'm not really sure genes versus alleles however. So, call them all genes and I'm fine with that. That said, another that's worked directly with genes and alleles could clear it up better, if you want. For ease of working with it, I usually just call all of them genes and am done with it (exception of pearl and cream as they share the same locus... eh... yeah..... ). And it goes on and on.