Przewalski Horse Dilutes

[ShowCountry]

Hi, I've been working on diluting the Przewalski dun color for a while now and would like to know exactly what color combo it would be called. I was aiming for the lightest body color along with a white mane and tail. Trying to breed out the dun.
These are my best results as of right now:
Stallions
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191584
Mares
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191509
I also have these stallions, not as light but keeping for the higher HGP:
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/185975
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191760

Can the color experts here in HWO please help me identify the colors I have achieved
Thanks

[BlackOak2]

Hi, I've been working on diluting the Przewalski dun color for a while now and would like to know exactly what color combo it would be called. I was aiming for the lightest body color along with a white mane and tail. Trying to breed out the dun.
These are my best results as of right now:
Stallions
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191584
Mares
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191509
I also have these stallions, not as light but keeping for the higher HGP:
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/185975
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191760

Can the color experts here in HWO please help me identify the colors I have achieved
Thanks

Without going through each one individually.
It looks like you've got double dilutes (double creams) on bay and chestnut bases (with pangare).
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3778011 <--This one in particular, has dun.
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3777822 <--As does this one.

Actually, the more barns I go through, it appears a lot of yours has dun. So... you still have dun. Sorry to give you that news.

It appears that you have a mix of cremellos and perlinos with pangare and varying amounts of dun expression. It looks like maybe some of your horses may not be dun carriers, but others of yours do also appear that they might be cryptic.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3719866 <--This horse appears to be a palomino dun pangare, likely with flaxen.
Any horse with black skin is more likely a single dilute, but almost all of your horses are pink-skinned, so they're double dilutes.

[ShowCountry]

Hi, I've been working on diluting the Przewalski dun color for a while now and would like to know exactly what color combo it would be called. I was aiming for the lightest body color along with a white mane and tail. Trying to breed out the dun.
These are my best results as of right now:
Stallions
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191584
Mares
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191509
I also have these stallions, not as light but keeping for the higher HGP:
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/185975
https://www.horseworldonline.net/farm/barn/191760

Can the color experts here in HWO please help me identify the colors I have achieved
Thanks

Without going through each one individually.
It looks like you've got double dilutes (double creams) on bay and chestnut bases (with pangare).
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3778011 <--This one in particular, has dun.
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3777822 <--As does this one.

Actually, the more barns I go through, it appears a lot of yours has dun. So... you still have dun. Sorry to give you that news.

It appears that you have a mix of cremellos and perlinos with pangare and varying amounts of dun expression. It looks like maybe some of your horses may not be dun carriers, but others of yours do also appear that they might be cryptic.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3719866 <--This horse appears to be a palomino dun pangare, likely with flaxen.
Any horse with black skin is more likely a single dilute, but almost all of your horses are pink-skinned, so they're double dilutes.

Thank you so much for taking the time to check them out I do realize I still have a lot of dun still in there. Ha, probably never eliminate it completely, LOL
I will age out the single dilute ones or use them just to keep improving HGP; and then continue on with just the pink nosed double dilute stallions.

[It appears that you have a mix of cremellos and perlinos with pangare and varying amounts of dun expression. It looks like maybe some of your horses may not be dun carriers],
Can you help point me to which ones you think may not be carriers? a possible mare/stallion match or 2 for me to try out? How would you continue with this project? Any help you can suggest would be appreciated. Thanks again!

[BlackOak2]

Thank you so much for taking the time to check them out I do realize I still have a lot of dun still in there. Ha, probably never eliminate it completely, LOL
I will age out the single dilute ones or use them just to keep improving HGP; and then continue on with just the pink nosed double dilute stallions.

[It appears that you have a mix of cremellos and perlinos with pangare and varying amounts of dun expression. It looks like maybe some of your horses may not be dun carriers],
Can you help point me to which ones you think may not be carriers? a possible mare/stallion match or 2 for me to try out? How would you continue with this project? Any help you can suggest would be appreciated. Thanks again!

If you're looking for pseudo-white through dilutes, I'd suggest at this point, to throw in a champagne. If you want to stay away from triple dilutes, then keeping the dun in your herd but favoring the cryptic variety would give you the overall-even look.
Double dilutes can get pretty light in color, but will never obtain a pseudo-white coloration without some help (and maybe significant help from) at least pangare OR dun. By including both with the double cream, you'll obtain a pseudo-pink in an extremely light variation.

So, it really comes down to what you want, what you don't want and the genes you want to focus on and those you want to cull out.

Dun will be a difficult one currently. Since you've already been working with it for some time, you've already built a 'type' of dun. So breeding it out may in fact, eventually lead you to a cryptic variety instead. So... keep that in mind.

IF you do want to certainly breed it out, you'll need to use (and best bet would be an AC horse) a horse without any dun at all. AC breeds like arabian and belgian are confirmed NON-dun carriers. So one of these two would work best toward that goal.
What you'd need to do, in this case, is take select members of your current herd to make your new herd. Breed them back to the AC horse. This foal (depending on your current herd Dun status) may still be dun, but is guaranteed to be no more than D/d for dun. The second generation foal, if you get a black foal or a brown foal, you can see much more clearly if it's dun or not (since black hairs turn gray with dun ).

Then those foals that pop and appear to be dun-free, use only these for rebuilding your herd. You'll have a much less chance of having dun continue in your new herd.

^That would be the most direct way [now] to breed out the dun genes. And how I would suggest dealing with dominant genes in any project in the future where you know you don't want a particular gene in your herd.

To keep double creams in your herd, you're almost there currently. Your single creams (like the one I linked before) will throw 50/50 single creams and double creams. Just cull out any foals born with black skin and that'll be that. Once you're only working with pink-skinned horses, you won't need to worry about double cream again. You'll only ever have double cream foals as long as you breed double cream adults.

Now for the more difficult area of your questions. Hunting for the dun-less horses. :LOL:

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3778009 <--This horse has champagne (the freckles). He is likely a triple dilute (in chestnut). I'm not seeing any pangare, but it's in the rest of your herd, so he's likely to have it. On his back far leg, up just above his hock (on the front), I can see faint stripes. So he's a dun carrier and we'd call him cryptic.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3768493 <--Another cryptic. But this mare shows the leg stripings that the rest of your herd has. Across all four of her legs. You can see them much better, if you zoom in. If you find it hard still to see them, use the gallery and drag the bar all the way to the right.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3686902 <--This filly looks clear of dun. She does have pangare, does NOT have champagne and appears to be on a chestnut base. Likely has flaxen, because of the brightness of her mane and tail.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3775857 <--This stallion looks clear of dun. He doesn't appear to have pangare. DOES have champagne. So he's a triple dilute. Chestnut base.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3687551 <--This stallion I like the best. He is a gorgeous cremello with pangare and likely flaxen (chestnut base). He does have the pangare that's a hard line, ending just above his stomach and not coloring his entire body. But that can be bred-for as much as the whole-body pangare. So don't worry too much. You could use the filly above for that.

Among all of the herd of the barns that you linked, only these three appear to be absent dun. And of these three, if you want to avoid champagne, I'd suggest using only the filly and the last stallion. All of their foals will be chestnuts and all [MAY, rather SHOULD] be dun free (assuming that what they have is absent dun and not a cryptic version).
They'll also be double creams. Only thing you should be culling out would be pangare patterns that you don't like or want.

[ShowCountry]

Thank you so much for taking the time to check them out I do realize I still have a lot of dun still in there. Ha, probably never eliminate it completely, LOL
I will age out the single dilute ones or use them just to keep improving HGP; and then continue on with just the pink nosed double dilute stallions.

[It appears that you have a mix of cremellos and perlinos with pangare and varying amounts of dun expression. It looks like maybe some of your horses may not be dun carriers],
Can you help point me to which ones you think may not be carriers? a possible mare/stallion match or 2 for me to try out? How would you continue with this project? Any help you can suggest would be appreciated. Thanks again!

If you're looking for pseudo-white through dilutes, I'd suggest at this point, to throw in a champagne. If you want to stay away from triple dilutes, then keeping the dun in your herd but favoring the cryptic variety would give you the overall-even look.
Double dilutes can get pretty light in color, but will never obtain a pseudo-white coloration without some help (and maybe significant help from) at least pangare OR dun. By including both with the double cream, you'll obtain a pseudo-pink in an extremely light variation.

So, it really comes down to what you want, what you don't want and the genes you want to focus on and those you want to cull out.

Dun will be a difficult one currently. Since you've already been working with it for some time, you've already built a 'type' of dun. So breeding it out may in fact, eventually lead you to a cryptic variety instead. So... keep that in mind.

IF you do want to certainly breed it out, you'll need to use (and best bet would be an AC horse) a horse without any dun at all. AC breeds like arabian and belgian are confirmed NON-dun carriers. So one of these two would work best toward that goal.
What you'd need to do, in this case, is take select members of your current herd to make your new herd. Breed them back to the AC horse. This foal (depending on your current herd Dun status) may still be dun, but is guaranteed to be no more than D/d for dun. The second generation foal, if you get a black foal or a brown foal, you can see much more clearly if it's dun or not (since black hairs turn gray with dun ).

Then those foals that pop and appear to be dun-free, use only these for rebuilding your herd. You'll have a much less chance of having dun continue in your new herd.

^That would be the most direct way [now] to breed out the dun genes. And how I would suggest dealing with dominant genes in any project in the future where you know you don't want a particular gene in your herd.

To keep double creams in your herd, you're almost there currently. Your single creams (like the one I linked before) will throw 50/50 single creams and double creams. Just cull out any foals born with black skin and that'll be that. Once you're only working with pink-skinned horses, you won't need to worry about double cream again. You'll only ever have double cream foals as long as you breed double cream adults.

Now for the more difficult area of your questions. Hunting for the dun-less horses. :LOL:

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3778009 <--This horse has champagne (the freckles). He is likely a triple dilute (in chestnut). I'm not seeing any pangare, but it's in the rest of your herd, so he's likely to have it. On his back far leg, up just above his hock (on the front), I can see faint stripes. So he's a dun carrier and we'd call him cryptic.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3768493 <--Another cryptic. But this mare shows the leg stripings that the rest of your herd has. Across all four of her legs. You can see them much better, if you zoom in. If you find it hard still to see them, use the gallery and drag the bar all the way to the right.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3686902 <--This filly looks clear of dun. She does have pangare, does NOT have champagne and appears to be on a chestnut base. Likely has flaxen, because of the brightness of her mane and tail.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3775857 <--This stallion looks clear of dun. He doesn't appear to have pangare. DOES have champagne. So he's a triple dilute. Chestnut base.

https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3687551 <--This stallion I like the best. He is a gorgeous cremello with pangare and likely flaxen (chestnut base). He does have the pangare that's a hard line, ending just above his stomach and not coloring his entire body. But that can be bred-for as much as the whole-body pangare. So don't worry too much. You could use the filly above for that.

Among all of the herd of the barns that you linked, only these three appear to be absent dun. And of these three, if you want to avoid champagne, I'd suggest using only the filly and the last stallion. All of their foals will be chestnuts and all [MAY, rather SHOULD] be dun free (assuming that what they have is absent dun and not a cryptic version).
They'll also be double creams. Only thing you should be culling out would be pangare patterns that you don't like or want.

Thank you!! this is a lot to digest but very, very informative. I am defiantly going to take your suggestion and breed the little filly to the last stallion when she comes of age. This is my first attempt at color breeding. I guess I really don't know what I want, LOL, except to keep the white mane, tail and very light colors in my herd because it's so unique to the Prz horse. I have nothing against Champagne as long as it isn't too dark. I like the double cream and also the triple dilutes, I don't specifically want to get to pseudo white, but wouldn't mind if i did. I'd like to eventually add more pearl gene that gives a little more iridescence. I guess I even don't mind the dun so much if it is well hidden, I realize that might defeat my hopes of keeping my double creams/dilutes more pure.
I will also take your advice on adding in some more AC arab and belgian stock if I can find some really light-colored ones. I was trying to stick more with just the Przewalski, but i did realize that would never eliminate the dun unless I added something else but was afraid to add too much other breeds. I want as many pure Przewalski of the cream/dilute/pearl/champagne etc. as possible. I'm really scared of adding the darker colors back in again.
So to sum it up, I guess I'll be using just my double cream, pink nosed stallions with double cream mares and throw in a champagne and an Arab or Belgian now and them. Still a bit confused about pangare. I can usually spot it in the darker colors but not so much in the dilute colors.
Thanks again and I'll start by aging out all those Black noses,

[BlackOak2]

Thank you!! this is a lot to digest but very, very informative. I am defiantly going to take your suggestion and breed the little filly to the last stallion when she comes of age. This is my first attempt at color breeding. I guess I really don't know what I want, LOL, except to keep the white mane, tail and very light colors in my herd because it's so unique to the Prz horse. I have nothing against Champagne as long as it isn't too dark. I like the double cream and also the triple dilutes, I don't specifically want to get to pseudo white, but wouldn't mind if i did. I'd like to eventually add more pearl gene that gives a little more iridescence. I guess I even don't mind the dun so much if it is well hidden, I realize that might defeat my hopes of keeping my double creams/dilutes more pure.
I will also take your advice on adding in some more AC arab and belgian stock if I can find some really light-colored ones. I was trying to stick more with just the Przewalski, but i did realize that would never eliminate the dun unless I added something else but was afraid to add too much other breeds. I want as many pure Przewalski of the cream/dilute/pearl/champagne etc. as possible. I'm really scared of adding the darker colors back in again.
So to sum it up, I guess I'll be using just my double cream, pink nosed stallions with double cream mares and throw in a champagne and an Arab or Belgian now and them. Still a bit confused about pangare. I can usually spot it in the darker colors but not so much in the dilute colors.
Thanks again and I'll start by aging out all those Black noses,

Hmm... something in your reply is making me ask this question. So pardon if it's a D'oh! moment for me.

You do know that AC prze stock is pangare and dun on wild bay and bay only, right?

They're double agouti. A random mix of wild bay and bay. So you can have wild bay A+/A+ or you can have bay A/A or you can have wild bay A+/A
The last one will also throw bays. But they're all doubled bay- agouti.
Plus, they all have doubled pangare, so they're all P/P (or however we have it -_- )
And they're all doubled dun, so D/D

In this way, all of the foals will be either bay or wild bay, they'll always have dun and they'll always have pangare.
...
Maybe not all of them are dun doubled. But I can't remember of any that doesn't have dun.

Anyway. They have no creams in their gene pool, nor champagne and certainly not pearl.

To get pearl, you'll need to go after an NAB.

Arabs and belgians will darken your stock, but only because you'll be shuffling just ONE cream gene to the foal. So your foals will be buckskins, palominos and smokies. But that's an easy correction.
Arabs and belgians don't have any dilute genes from the AC, so you'll never find a palomino, a buckskin or a smoky.
But, you could find a roan and you'll certainly find gray.
Both of the AC breeds can also have sooty. Sooty will darken your line. But that's generally and relatively easy to see.

[ShowCountry]

Thank you!! this is a lot to digest but very, very informative. I am defiantly going to take your suggestion and breed the little filly to the last stallion when she comes of age. This is my first attempt at color breeding. I guess I really don't know what I want, LOL, except to keep the white mane, tail and very light colors in my herd because it's so unique to the Prz horse. I have nothing against Champagne as long as it isn't too dark. I like the double cream and also the triple dilutes, I don't specifically want to get to pseudo white, but wouldn't mind if i did. I'd like to eventually add more pearl gene that gives a little more iridescence. I guess I even don't mind the dun so much if it is well hidden, I realize that might defeat my hopes of keeping my double creams/dilutes more pure.
I will also take your advice on adding in some more AC arab and belgian stock if I can find some really light-colored ones. I was trying to stick more with just the Przewalski, but i did realize that would never eliminate the dun unless I added something else but was afraid to add too much other breeds. I want as many pure Przewalski of the cream/dilute/pearl/champagne etc. as possible. I'm really scared of adding the darker colors back in again.
So to sum it up, I guess I'll be using just my double cream, pink nosed stallions with double cream mares and throw in a champagne and an Arab or Belgian now and them. Still a bit confused about pangare. I can usually spot it in the darker colors but not so much in the dilute colors.
Thanks again and I'll start by aging out all those Black noses,

Hmm... something in your reply is making me ask this question. So pardon if it's a D'oh! moment for me.

You do know that AC prze stock is pangare and dun on wild bay and bay only, right?

They're double agouti. A random mix of wild bay and bay. So you can have wild bay A+/A+ or you can have bay A/A or you can have wild bay A+/A
The last one will also throw bays. But they're all doubled bay- agouti.
Plus, they all have doubled pangare, so they're all P/P (or however we have it -_- )
And they're all doubled dun, so D/D

In this way, all of the foals will be either bay or wild bay, they'll always have dun and they'll always have pangare.
...
Maybe not all of them are dun doubled. But I can't remember of any that doesn't have dun.

Anyway. They have no creams in their gene pool, nor champagne and certainly not pearl.

To get pearl, you'll need to go after an NAB.

Arabs and belgians will darken your stock, but only because you'll be shuffling just ONE cream gene to the foal. So your foals will be buckskins, palominos and smokies. But that's an easy correction.
Arabs and belgians don't have any dilute genes from the AC, so you'll never find a palomino, a buckskin or a smoky.
But, you could find a roan and you'll certainly find gray.
Both of the AC breeds can also have sooty. Sooty will darken your line. But that's generally and relatively easy to see.

Haha, I am good at being confusing to myself and to others, sorry about that.
I was not going to add any more AC Przewalski, just sticking with the ones I have.
I looked at AC Arabs and they are all dark. I have never liked the greys and really don't want to introduce that.
I did just pick up a Belgian mare and bred her to the stud you liked best for not having dun. She's very light. Not sure if roan or pangare
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3924270
What do you think?
Going to move her to another farm to pop her.

[BlackOak2]

Haha, I am good at being confusing to myself and to others, sorry about that.
I was not going to add any more AC Przewalski, just sticking with the ones I have.
I looked at AC Arabs and they are all dark. I have never liked the greys and really don't want to introduce that.
I did just pick up a Belgian mare and bred her to the stud you liked best for not having dun. She's very light. Not sure if roan or pangare
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3924270
What do you think?
Going to move her to another farm to pop her.

Ah! Okay.

Your mare is a flaxen chestnut roan pangare. So both roan and pangare.
So her genes would be something like:
e/e (negative for black) - chestnut
Unknown agouti, she could have Bay, Wild Bay. [img=viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2653]Ancient Color guide[/img] suggests just bay. Personally I don't recall. For all I remember, the AC belgians might also have brown.
But, suffice to say, unknown agouti (if any at all) is hiding in that chestnut mare.
Rn/? - roan, but unknown if it's doubled or not. At least a 50/50 for her foal to have roan
P/? - pangare. But since you have pangare everywhere, the foal should pop with pangare anyway.

Foal could be bay or chestnut base. Should have pangare. So it'll pop out as a palomino or a buckskin and should have flaxen... although the flaxen will be hidden if it's a buckskin. Will have black skin, but that's only because your stallion is only able to pass onward just ONE of the cream genes. It'll take another generation to get back to pink-skin.

[ShowCountry]

Haha, I am good at being confusing to myself and to others, sorry about that.
I was not going to add any more AC Przewalski, just sticking with the ones I have.
I looked at AC Arabs and they are all dark. I have never liked the greys and really don't want to introduce that.
I did just pick up a Belgian mare and bred her to the stud you liked best for not having dun. She's very light. Not sure if roan or pangare
https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/3924270
What do you think?
Going to move her to another farm to pop her.

Ah! Okay.

Your mare is a flaxen chestnut roan pangare. So both roan and pangare.
So her genes would be something like:
e/e (negative for black) - chestnut
Unknown agouti, she could have Bay, Wild Bay. [img=viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2653]Ancient Color guide[/img] suggests just bay. Personally I don't recall. For all I remember, the AC belgians might also have brown.
But, suffice to say, unknown agouti (if any at all) is hiding in that chestnut mare.
Rn/? - roan, but unknown if it's doubled or not. At least a 50/50 for her foal to have roan
P/? - pangare. But since you have pangare everywhere, the foal should pop with pangare anyway.

Foal could be bay or chestnut base. Should have pangare. So it'll pop out as a palomino or a buckskin and should have flaxen... although the flaxen will be hidden if it's a buckskin. Will have black skin, but that's only because your stallion is only able to pass onward just ONE of the cream genes. It'll take another generation to get back to pink-skin.

Thanks I'll be looking for more help once the foal is of breeding age as to what to breed it to, to get my pinkies back.

[BlackOak2]

Thanks I'll be looking for more help once the foal is of breeding age as to what to breed it to, to get my pinkies back.

Thumbs up!
I'll be around. And not the only one, so if somebody else responds in my stead, you should still be good to go.