Looking for Other Opinions

[Raikit]

So I have this horse. I have him, and both of his parents, labelled as double pearls. Recently I've begun doubting that evaluation. He's had two foals that came out looking like single cream dilutes. Normally I would attribute that to being double pearl. The problem is that there is absolutely no way the babies could be double pearl. Both mares were single cream dilutes and have absolutely no source of pearl in their bloodlines. So my current working theory is that my boy is actually a pearl-cream, and that one of his parents is a pearl-cream rather than double-pearl. All I know for sure is that I have a mistake somewhere. What do you guys think?

Here is the stallion in question. I have him labelled as a chestnut-based champagne with double pearl. I know for sure that he carries silver (it's popped up in his foals), and that is part of the reason I believe he's chestnut-based - if he was black-based with silver and either double pearl or cream-pearl then he would be much more white, with a slight yellow tint. (Like this horse.)





This is his sire. I have him labelled as a chestnut-based champagne with double pearl and roan. The only thing I know for sure is the champagne and roan. He has no possibility of silver because both of his parents were black-based and did not have silver (his dam is kind of a fake-out, looking like potential silver but also with no source for it).





This is his dam. I have her labelled as bay-based with silver and double pearl (plus snowflakes). So this is where my boy got his silver. Her sire is labelled as a black-based double-pearl champagne and her dam is labelled as a bay-based silver pearl.

[BlackOak2]

So I have this horse. I have him, and both of his parents, labelled as double pearls. Recently I've begun doubting that evaluation. He's had two foals that came out looking like single cream dilutes. Normally I would attribute that to being double pearl. The problem is that there is absolutely no way the babies could be double pearl. Both mares were single cream dilutes and have absolutely no source of pearl in their bloodlines. So my current working theory is that my boy is actually a pearl-cream, and that one of his parents is a pearl-cream rather than double-pearl. All I know for sure is that I have a mistake somewhere. What do you guys think?

Here is the stallion in question. I have him labelled as a chestnut-based champagne with double pearl. I know for sure that he carries silver (it's popped up in his foals), and that is part of the reason I believe he's chestnut-based - if he was black-based with silver and either double pearl or cream-pearl then he would be much more white, with a slight yellow tint. (Like this horse.)





This is his sire. I have him labelled as a chestnut-based champagne with double pearl and roan. The only thing I know for sure is the champagne and roan. He has no possibility of silver because both of his parents were black-based and did not have silver (his dam is kind of a fake-out, looking like potential silver but also with no source for it).





This is his dam. I have her labelled as bay-based with silver and double pearl (plus snowflakes). So this is where my boy got his silver. Her sire is labelled as a black-based double-pearl champagne and her dam is labelled as a bay-based silver pearl.

This one I think is a classic cream, not classic pearl.


Which makes this one not a double pearl but rather a pearl, cream


But that would still mean blue eyes, which she does not have.
That's the only question I see about it and I could still go either way.

I think you have it correct, a double pearl but I disagree that it's on chestnut, I would say black. Granted, double pearl with champagne on black does make for some white colorations, but apricots and cremellos also produce very white colorations with champagne. What am I saying... that black pearl is only so light and classic champagne is also only so light. Why can't a combination be decently dark?

I'm not sure about Golden Lasso, I had my own problem mare that I couldn't work out not too long ago.
That said, I think he's double pearl on black base with no sign of dapples.

[Raikit]

This one I think is a classic cream, not classic pearl.


Which makes this one not a double pearl but rather a pearl, cream


But that would still mean blue eyes, which she does not have.
That's the only question I see about it and I could still go either way.

I think you have it correct, a double pearl but I disagree that it's on chestnut, I would say black. Granted, double pearl with champagne on black does make for some white colorations, but apricots and cremellos also produce very white colorations with champagne. What am I saying... that black pearl is only so light and classic champagne is also only so light. Why can't a combination be decently dark?

I'm not sure about Golden Lasso, I had my own problem mare that I couldn't work out not too long ago.
That said, I think he's double pearl on black base with no sign of dapples.

But he has dark eyes, so he can't be double cream. His sire was a cream-pearl so it's possible he could also be cream-pearl, but shouldn't he have the light eyes if so?

That mare was a source of suspicion for me as well, but I just can't see her as buckskin pearl when I compare to other buckskin pearls I've had in the past. (Link is just to one I currently have, there are others in the pedigrees and possibly in my fields.)

The main reason I don't think Golden Lasso is black-based is because of his silver. Silver on a black double-pearl turns them gold, much like on a double-cream, so why would it have left him gray-ish? The lack of dapples doesn't bother me, just the lack of any sign other than mane and tail color (which could be caused by double pearl on chestnut).




(I'm not saying you're wrong, just voicing my thought process.)

[BlackOak2]

But he has dark eyes, so he can't be double cream. His sire was a cream-pearl so it's possible he could also be cream-pearl, but shouldn't he have the light eyes if so?

That mare was a source of suspicion for me as well, but I just can't see her as buckskin pearl when I compare to other buckskin pearls I've had in the past. (Link is just to one I currently have, there are others in the pedigrees and possibly in my fields.)

The main reason I don't think Golden Lasso is black-based is because of his silver. Silver on a black double-pearl turns them gold, much like on a double-cream, so why would it have left him gray-ish? The lack of dapples doesn't bother me, just the lack of any sign other than mane and tail color (which could be caused by double pearl on chestnut).


(I'm not saying you're wrong, just voicing my thought process.)

I know you're not saying I'm wrong. Voicing though processes does help to work through possibilities.

I haven't worked with dilutions yet, so the color mixing 'pump' in my brain doesn't always produce what actually is in the game.

I think the point of contention is the fact that he also carries champagne. Silver with double pearl on black may turn them gold (or rather just lightens their coat through the red spectrum since pearl phases reddish while cream pushes toward yellow). Champagne, on the other hand forces yellowing with brown areas and simply washes out the black areas.

I think it's the champagne that has shifted him from being a sandy coloration toward gray. But if you notice, his coat isn't exactly GRAY-gray, if you shift between the two tabs, he and Diva do seem to share a common 'sandy' shading. He's almost a very pale, yellow-gray.

[Raikit]

I know you're not saying I'm wrong. Voicing though processes does help to work through possibilities.

I haven't worked with dilutions yet, so the color mixing 'pump' in my brain doesn't always produce what actually is in the game.

I think the point of contention is the fact that he also carries champagne. Silver with double pearl on black may turn them gold (or rather just lightens their coat through the red spectrum since pearl phases reddish while cream pushes toward yellow). Champagne, on the other hand forces yellowing with brown areas and simply washes out the black areas.

I think it's the champagne that has shifted him from being a sandy coloration toward gray. But if you notice, his coat isn't exactly GRAY-gray, if you shift between the two tabs, he and Diva do seem to share a common 'sandy' shading. He's almost a very pale, yellow-gray.

I'm going to breed him with some pure chestnuts and see what pops out. Hopefully that'll help narrow things down.

[BlackOak2]

I'm going to breed him with some pure chestnuts and see what pops out. Hopefully that'll help narrow things down.

Good Luck!

[Raikit]

Good Luck!

So turns out he has to be either bay- or chestnut-based - he had a bay-based foal from a brown-based mare.

[BlackOak2]

Good Luck!

So turns out he has to be either bay- or chestnut-based - he had a bay-based foal from a brown-based mare.

Ha!
That certainly blows my suggestions right out of the water!

He certainly doesn't have any shading on his nose or his lower legs, so chestnut he must be.

So that leaves him as either palomino pearl or apricot on champagne. There's very little difference between the two colors. But I'm still voting double pearl, after all, he doesn't have blue eyes. Silverine and I were having a discussion about champagne eyes and blue eyes changing colors.

We were speaking about it in my questionable mare color post: http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 13&t=11484
I do not know if it'll shed any additional light for you or not.

[Raikit]

Ha!
That certainly blows my suggestions right out of the water!

He certainly doesn't have any shading on his nose or his lower legs, so chestnut he must be.

So that leaves him as either palomino pearl or apricot on champagne. There's very little difference between the two colors. But I'm still voting double pearl, after all, he doesn't have blue eyes. Silverine and I were having a discussion about champagne eyes and blue eyes changing colors.

We were speaking about it in my questionable mare color post: http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... 13&t=11484
I do not know if it'll shed any additional light for you or not.

I have two foals cooking from un-diluted chestnuts, so we'll see what happens with those. My money is currently on at least one of the babies being palomino, but who knows at this point.

Very interesting mare. From my experience champagne-based foals with one or fewer creams are born with lighter eyes that darken to brown with age. I don't have enough experience with Lp to know how that affects it. You can actually see on the filly I linked earlier that she was born with a light-colored eye, but now has dark ones.

[BlackOak2]

I have two foals cooking from un-diluted chestnuts, so we'll see what happens with those. My money is currently on at least one of the babies being palomino, but who knows at this point.

Very interesting mare. From my experience champagne-based foals with one or fewer creams are born with lighter eyes that darken to brown with age. I don't have enough experience with Lp to know how that affects it. You can actually see on the filly I linked earlier that she was born with a light-colored eye, but now has dark ones.

That has been the general experience for the community as well.
Then every once in awhile, strange ones pop up that kind of defy the 'accepted' rules.
I've been working with Lp for awhile, but again, not with dilutions so I don't know how they interact.

I have also experienced an aggravating re-occurrence of certain singular genes from being bred out. I've had singular Lp and singular cream continuing down from parent to offspring for seven or eight continuous generations. My point being that sometimes certain genes won't throw, even when there's still a good chance of it, and vice versa.

I certainly hope you have your answer soon.
As an off note (although I assume you already have some in stock, but if you don't...) I have a pair of confirmed single pearl carriers.
The mare, a brown dun


and her son, a bay dun



but that may lead to even more difficult typing, since dun dilutes color as well. I do not recall if they're homo- or hetro- for dun.