More Dilutes...

[redster]

I'm getting into NABs now, which mean a whole host of genes I'm not used to, especially straight out of the AC. I really did my best to finally understand how Cream, Pearl, Champagne, Silver all work together... but I'm just too new to be able to look at them and tell what they might be. I managed to figure out some elements of them, but I would love someone to be able to check my work and explain the things that I'm confused on or have missed entirely. Since they're going to be the base of a new line, I'd love to understand all the genes that are or might be involved going forward--including the little things like mealy or sooty, which I tend to miss.

Flower Queen

So, she's got pretty strong dapples all over, so that means that she's black based and not just sooty, right? And there are no freckles, so not Champagne... but beyond that, I don't know what I'm looking at. Double Cream? Possibly some Pearl? Someone help.

Freckles

Just black-based Silver dapple? Anything else I'm missing on this guy?

Lyric

Double Cream because her skin is pink and eyes are blue? Pearl...? I don't know.

Zealous

I think he's just Bay Roan?

Mythic

Sorry for her picture, I'm taking a new one when she's not so pregnant. Is she a Smoky Brown (heterozygous for Cream?) because her tan bits are more yellowish than reddish?

Skyshade

I was thinking also Smoky Brown, but his sire confuses me. Is he also Smoky Brown, or is that some weird expression of sooty? And if that's the case, is his dam Double Cream, so he inherited no Cream from his sire and one from his dam?

[BlackOak2]

...

Personally, I think you're doing very well on trying to figure out the colors. We all started somewhere and you appear to be following along the same lines that most of us do. You won't need too much help for too much longer.

Flower Queen: You're correct, she is black based and not sooty. Remember, in order for sooty dapples to appear, there needs to be sooty that also appears. The difference when looking at the two, is that silver dapples can be described as a washing-out of the dapples, whereas sooty dapples can better be described as the dappled areas are where sooty does not color, leaving the original coat color to shine through. Now, as for whether she's double cream or cream & pearl, that's a very good question. If you match her with a pearl horse and she throws a dark-eyed foal, then she'll carry a pearl. However, I'm of the belief (for percentage chance as well), that she's double cream. Pearl, even for NAB's is a little on the rarer side. Plus, I think (though I could be wrong), that a cream & pearl, when paired with silver, will appear just a little bit lighter.

Freckles: Silver black dapples, correct. Considering there's no foal pics (AC stock... oh well... right?) There's a chance that there's a hidden cream or pearl. So don't be too surprised if he suddenly throws a buckskin or palomino when paired with a cream or pearl carrying mare.

Lyric: Double cream is the most likely choice, again for previously stated reasons, one of those creams could very well be a pearl instead. On black. And yes, because of the pink skin and blue eyes.

Zealous: Bay Roan, correct.

Mythic: Smoky Brown. One Cream. Correct, and because it looks yellowish (goldish) instead of dark-red-brown. And because pearl cannot hide when paired with cream, this mare is not a pearl carrier.

Skyshade: Smoky Brown, you're correct. What you could be seeing on the sire is either an unusual expression of either pangare or dun (I think it's likely pangare). Plus, this colt, Skyshade, is also a tiger eye carrier (is sire had bright green eyes, so he carried two tiger eye genes, all of his children will be carriers). So, yes, he missed the cream from his sire and only inherited the cream from his dam.

Now that you appear to have a handle on your colors, you might find these topics a bit interesting and informative:
Favorite Horse World Online Horses - Update***
I don't offer this topic to confuse you, just to enlighten and view the different outcomes that the game allows us.

A Study in Dilution: the Dun Gene
A little further depth into what the dun gene can give.

A Study in Dappling: the Silver Gene
Specifically focused on silver dapples.

[redster]

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Ah! Thank you so very much for taking the time to explain things, and also for the encouragement. That means a lot. It's nice to know that I'm not as off-track as I feel, haha.

Also, those links also are going to be a huge help. So far, I've just kind of been flopping my way through the stickied guide posts in this forum and that's about it. I didn't know those ones existed. They'll definitely help my identifying skills.

Flower Queen: Ah yeah, the two different kind of dapples thing makes sense. That's how I had been assuming it worked, but since I had no idea what her coat actually was behind the dapples and what it was supposed to look like, there could have been a sooty covering over it for all I knew. And I think I understand what you mean about how testing her with a pearl horse would work, but I'm not super sure. Wouldn't she throw a dark-eyed foal in either case?

Freckles: That pangare-ish look on him is just because silver can sometimes have that effect, yeah?

Lyric: So, if she's likely the same double cream as Flower Queen, do they look different because of one being silver, because double cream can just look like either of those expressions, or because Lyric might be cream-pearl and that's what's making them look different from one another?

Zealous: Yeah! I got one right.

Mythic: Oho, I didn't think about that fact. That's good to keep in mind about pearl.

Skyshade: Ah, I totally missed the tiger-eye! I've never had that gene floating around before, so that'll be fun if I can get it to show up in my lines. And is pangare considered dominant/partial dominant? Might that weird look of his father show up again, or probably not if Skyshade isn't already showing it?

[BlackOak2]

Ah! Thank you so very much for taking the time to explain things, and also for the encouragement. That means a lot. It's nice to know that I'm not as off-track as I feel, haha.

Also, those links also are going to be a huge help. So far, I've just kind of been flopping my way through the stickied guide posts in this forum and that's about it. I didn't know those ones existed. They'll definitely help my identifying skills.

Flower Queen: Ah yeah, the two different kind of dapples thing makes sense. That's how I had been assuming it worked, but since I had no idea what her coat actually was behind the dapples and what it was supposed to look like, there could have been a sooty covering over it for all I knew. And I think I understand what you mean about how testing her with a pearl horse would work, but I'm not super sure. Wouldn't she throw a dark-eyed foal in either case?

Freckles: That pangare-ish look on him is just because silver can sometimes have that effect, yeah?

Lyric: So, if she's likely the same double cream as Flower Queen, do they look different because of one being silver, because double cream can just look like either of those expressions, or because Lyric might be cream-pearl and that's what's making them look different from one another?

Zealous: Yeah! I got one right.

Mythic: Oho, I didn't think about that fact. That's good to keep in mind about pearl.

Skyshade: Ah, I totally missed the tiger-eye! I've never had that gene floating around before, so that'll be fun if I can get it to show up in my lines. And is pangare considered dominant/partial dominant? Might that weird look of his father show up again, or probably not if Skyshade isn't already showing it?

Two creams will always give you pink skin and blue eyes (champagne may darken the eyes or tiger eye may change the color whey they blow their coat at 1 year).
A cream and a pearl, will also give you pink skin and blue eyes. Without knowing what genes go into your foal, it may be impossible to differentiate between double cream and cream/pearl unless a foal proves a pearl gene.
ONLY two pearls will offer pink skin and dark eyes. As an example, this is a bay pearl girl with pangare (double pearl):



Black horses cannot show the pangare they're carrying, so we (the community) are nominally under the agreement that the pangare-style on some black horses are caused by the silver gene (since they'll only appear on black with silver, not black with dun, which will also brighten the coat). I have a sneaking suspicion however, that these black horses are that are displaying this pangare-style with silver are actually expressing the pangare they have. I haven't looked into it further. So... this pangare-style is from the silver gene.

Lyric and flower queen look very different (even though they have the same base and likely the same double cream) is indeed because of the silver. Silver changes the base coat of black from... black... to a silver-color. When crossed into a dilution gene (champagne, cream & pearl), this silver will turn a golden color, like you see.

Pangare is simple dominant. Which means, you only need one for it to express and when doubled up, it doesn't change it's expression.

[redster]

Two creams will always give you pink skin and blue eyes (champagne may darken the eyes or tiger eye may change the color whey they blow their coat at 1 year).
A cream and a pearl, will also give you pink skin and blue eyes. Without knowing what genes go into your foal, it may be impossible to differentiate between double cream and cream/pearl unless a foal proves a pearl gene.
ONLY two pearls will offer pink skin and dark eyes. As an example, this is a bay pearl girl with pangare (double pearl):

Black horses cannot show the pangare they're carrying, so we (the community) are nominally under the agreement that the pangare-style on some black horses are caused by the silver gene (since they'll only appear on black with silver, not black with dun, which will also brighten the coat). I have a sneaking suspicion however, that these black horses are that are displaying this pangare-style with silver are actually expressing the pangare they have. I haven't looked into it further. So... this pangare-style is from the silver gene.

Lyric and flower queen look very different (even though they have the same base and likely the same double cream) is indeed because of the silver. Silver changes the base coat of black from... black... to a silver-color. When crossed into a dilution gene (champagne, cream & pearl), this silver will turn a golden color, like you see.

Pangare is simple dominant. Which means, you only need one for it to express and when doubled up, it doesn't change it's expression.

Oh! I'd misunderstood that about cream-pearls. I'd thought only double cream shows the blue eyes and pink skin, so that does make sense now, thanks.

That's very interesting about the pseudo-maybe-pangare of silver horses, haha. And the rest makes sense too.

Dang, I've learned a lot today. Thank you so much again for all your help (and for the times you've been helpful in the past!)

[BlackOak2]

Oh! I'd misunderstood that about cream-pearls. I'd thought only double cream shows the blue eyes and pink skin, so that does make sense now, thanks.

That's very interesting about the pseudo-maybe-pangare of silver horses, haha. And the rest makes sense too.

Dang, I've learned a lot today. Thank you so much again for all your help (and for the times you've been helpful in the past!)

Anytime!
The community is here, after all!

We'll be around!

[redster]

Anytime!
The community is here, after all!

We'll be around!

Also, haha... I see you hitting up Keystone. If you ever want to stud from any of my other boys, just let me know! The only reason they're not all up already is because I haven't done all the player trainings for it. But I'm always up for studding my boys out to help other peoples' breeding projects.

[BlackOak2]

Anytime!
The community is here, after all!

We'll be around!

Also, haha... I see you hitting up Keystone. If you ever want to stud from any of my other boys, just let me know! The only reason they're not all up already is because I haven't done all the player trainings for it. But I'm always up for studding my boys out to help other peoples' breeding projects.

Yeah, I've been trying to breed a cheju for awhile but I'm not having any luck. Keystone is one of two I think would offer me the most luck, but my mares are just too light. Most of the arab, mongolian crosses are already going to be light and mongolians aren't exactly heavy to begin with, so trying to make a cheju for the quest (instead of taking the time to build toward it appropriately), is like pulling teeth. After all, the cheju is a moderately heavy breed.

I was just thinking about breeding the arab, mongolian crosses into a heavier type. I'm preparing a line of heavy arabians right now, they're just not yet favoring the heavy leaning that I want. They're getting there though.

[redster]

Yeah, I've been trying to breed a cheju for awhile but I'm not having any luck. Keystone is one of two I think would offer me the most luck, but my mares are just too light. Most of the arab, mongolian crosses are already going to be light and mongolians aren't exactly heavy to begin with, so trying to make a cheju for the quest (instead of taking the time to build toward it appropriately), is like pulling teeth. After all, the cheju is a moderately heavy breed.

I was just thinking about breeding the arab, mongolian crosses into a heavier type. I'm preparing a line of heavy arabians right now, they're just not yet favoring the heavy leaning that I want. They're getting there though.

That body type, man. It's the bane of my existence. I haven't ever tried breeding in something heavier, so I'm always struggling with that same problem. I'm trying to breed for heavier Mongolians, but I'm doing it the old-fashioned way of just trying to keep ones that happen to be bigger-boned.

So yeah, if you do see a heavier horse of mine in there somewhere that you would rather use to breed, let me know. Same goes for my Mongolian progenitors, if you need extra blood there too.

[BlackOak2]

That body type, man. It's the bane of my existence. I haven't ever tried breeding in something heavier, so I'm always struggling with that same problem. I'm trying to breed for heavier Mongolians, but I'm doing it the old-fashioned way of just trying to keep ones that happen to be bigger-boned.

So yeah, if you do see a heavier horse of mine in there somewhere that you would rather use to breed, let me know. Same goes for my Mongolian progenitors, if you need extra blood there too.

The mongolian mare that I have is adequate enough. Although they're making it difficult on me too! But such is when trying to produce new breeds. The mare is of an appropriate size and type to make most of the crosses I need.

I just cruised through your stud stock and Keystone is by far the best combination of 'heaviest' size and type.

If you really are interested in making your mongolians a bit heavier, I can breed you an arab, mongolian cross and send it to you for your program. They're not quite as heavy-favoring yet, but for mongolian stock they should do fine. And one bred into your stock should do the trick to push them toward the medium-heavy range.
I think 6? generations will take them back to purebred... I'm not exactly sure from a 50/50 cross. For some reason I think it might well be quicker.

Up to you.