More Dilutes...

[redster]

The mongolian mare that I have is adequate enough. Although they're making it difficult on me too! But such is when trying to produce new breeds. The mare is of an appropriate size and type to make most of the crosses I need.

I just cruised through your stud stock and Keystone is by far the best combination of 'heaviest' size and type.

If you really are interested in making your mongolians a bit heavier, I can breed you an arab, mongolian cross and send it to you for your program. They're not quite as heavy-favoring yet, but for mongolian stock they should do fine. And one bred into your stock should do the trick to push them toward the medium-heavy range.
I think 6? generations will take them back to purebred... I'm not exactly sure from a 50/50 cross. For some reason I think it might well be quicker.

Up to you.

Oh, good. I'd half-remembered that Keystone was the most "ideal" one I'd currently had, as clued in by what I'd named him, but wasn't sure if I was correct in that.

And dang, if you wanted to offer that, I wouldn't refuse. I'm still super-new to the whole game compared to a lot of other people here, so that would give me a great jump-start on experimenting with the process of breeding back to pure. I've never had 6 straight generations of anything yet, so it would be a great long-term goal for me.

[BlackOak2]

Oh, good. I'd half-remembered that Keystone was the most "ideal" one I'd currently had, as clued in by what I'd named him, but wasn't sure if I was correct in that.

And dang, if you wanted to offer that, I wouldn't refuse. I'm still super-new to the whole game compared to a lot of other people here, so that would give me a great jump-start on experimenting with the process of breeding back to pure. I've never had 6 straight generations of anything yet, so it would be a great long-term goal for me.

I'll pick out the best one I have and cross that to my mongolian mare. Be warned that the HGP isn't grand (like I said, the project is still not where it should be), so expect to get one about on par or maybe just better than AC stock.

I'll let you know when I produce an acceptably 'report'ed one.

[BlackOak2]

...

Actually, I could also cross out to the best mongolian stud on market as well...
Let me think on that and I'll come up with the best alternative.

[redster]

Actually, I could also cross out to the best mongolian stud on market as well...
Let me think on that and I'll come up with the best alternative.

Sure! Whatever you decide.

And as for HGP, I'm only at about that level myself on even my best horses, as I stick to no-to-low COI, so that's more than fine for me.

[BlackOak2]

Actually, I could also cross out to the best mongolian stud on market as well...
Let me think on that and I'll come up with the best alternative.

Sure! Whatever you decide.

And as for HGP, I'm only at about that level myself on even my best horses, as I stick to no-to-low COI, so that's more than fine for me.

Remember that when one wants to make a set of gene's 'sticky', inbreeding could be necessary. For arabians, they're just not a light horse, they actually heavily favor throwing light foals, even when crossed with heavy belgians. So somewhere in their gene lineup, they have a whole slew of super light genes. The heavy arab project I'm working with is trying to inject heavy-favoring genes, so there's a lot of inbreeding going on. When I breed a heavy-mixed mare or stud to a pure arab AC stock, the corresponding foal will tell me if I have enough sticky genes to combat those super light genes.
COI of the foals I'm producing right now appears to be in the low 30's... wow, I figured I'd have a lot higher COI by now! So I guess I won't be sending you quite as high COI as I though.
Surprise to me.

[redster]

Remember that when one wants to make a set of gene's 'sticky', inbreeding could be necessary. For arabians, they're just not a light horse, they actually heavily favor throwing light foals, even when crossed with heavy belgians. So somewhere in their gene lineup, they have a whole slew of super light genes. The heavy arab project I'm working with is trying to inject heavy-favoring genes, so there's a lot of inbreeding going on. When I breed a heavy-mixed mare or stud to a pure arab AC stock, the corresponding foal will tell me if I have enough sticky genes to combat those super light genes.
COI of the foals I'm producing right now appears to be in the low 30's... wow, I figured I'd have a lot higher COI by now! So I guess I won't be sending you quite as high COI as I though.
Surprise to me.

Ah, yeah. I'd sort of been gathering that fact from reading around on the forum, but hadn't actually read any solid description of how various factors of inbreeding do or do not work. I'd gotten the gist that it would help you narrow down on genes that you wanted to keep, but that's about it. So, I'd decided to try and see if the process was just slower with no-inbreeding, or if the process was different altogether.

However, I obviously haven't gotten far enough with my lines to answer it for myself yet.

[BlackOak2]

Ah, yeah. I'd sort of been gathering that fact from reading around on the forum, but hadn't actually read any solid description of how various factors of inbreeding do or do not work. I'd gotten the gist that it would help you narrow down on genes that you wanted to keep, but that's about it. So, I'd decided to try and see if the process was just slower with no-inbreeding, or if the process was different altogether.

However, I obviously haven't gotten far enough with my lines to answer it for myself yet.

The basic answer I generally give is:

If you want and like a trait you suddenly see pop up in your line, breed back to that mare or stud so that upwards of 60% of your herd shares that parent (or grandparent if you breed the foals out). It's better if you can get to 75 or even 80 percent.

If you suddenly see something in your herd you don't like, find a trait that can at least nullify it, for example, if you suddenly find your horses have seriously dished faces, find a horse with a seriously roman nose and then limit breeding that particular dished mare or stud, or even get rid of them. The roman nosed horse injected into your line will help to combat the dished faces because evidently, the line is beginning to follow that path.

As for which process would be better to work with, it depends entirely on your goals. It is slower if you restrict or don't every inbreed, however, you will also limit sticky genes which can be very good because then you won't need to worry about breeding something back out.
However, that being said, without inbreeding at all, you'll have no build-up of genes you may want to keep, therefore any gene at all could pop up and could ruin the look you're going for, or ruin something you were attempting to breed toward.

[redster]

The basic answer I generally give is:

If you want and like a trait you suddenly see pop up in your line, breed back to that mare or stud so that upwards of 60% of your herd shares that parent (or grandparent if you breed the foals out). It's better if you can get to 75 or even 80 percent.

If you suddenly see something in your herd you don't like, find a trait that can at least nullify it, for example, if you suddenly find your horses have seriously dished faces, find a horse with a seriously roman nose and then limit breeding that particular dished mare or stud, or even get rid of them. The roman nosed horse injected into your line will help to combat the dished faces because evidently, the line is beginning to follow that path.

As for which process would be better to work with, it depends entirely on your goals. It is slower if you restrict or don't every inbreed, however, you will also limit sticky genes which can be very good because then you won't need to worry about breeding something back out.
However, that being said, without inbreeding at all, you'll have no build-up of genes you may want to keep, therefore any gene at all could pop up and could ruin the look you're going for, or ruin something you were attempting to breed toward.

Yeah, so far I've been going at it similarly to how I've played other genetics games, without knowing if it's going to end up being effective at all. Basically, I've been kind of operating under a sort of natural-selection method of weeding out things I don't like and keeping the things that I do, and raising up several simultaneous, steadily-improving lines to occasionally cross, so I don't have to introduce AC blood at every generation. So far, the things that I've been aiming for are slowly improving as I'd hoped... but, yeah, that "build-up" of genes is a foreign concept to me because of it.

The no-inbreeding method also seems like it will work best for general shifts, like stat-improvement, but terribly if I want something specific--like altering the "look" of my herd. But maybe the two methods can be combined fairly easily?

[BlackOak2]

Yeah, so far I've been going at it similarly to how I've played other genetics games, without knowing if it's going to end up being effective at all. Basically, I've been kind of operating under a sort of natural-selection method of weeding out things I don't like and keeping the things that I do, and raising up several simultaneous, steadily-improving lines to occasionally cross, so I don't have to introduce AC blood at every generation. So far, the things that I've been aiming for are slowly improving as I'd hoped... but, yeah, that "build-up" of genes is a foreign concept to me because of it.

The no-inbreeding method also seems like it will work best for general shifts, like stat-improvement, but terribly if I want something specific--like altering the "look" of my herd. But maybe the two methods can be combined fairly easily?

You're correct, they can be combined fairly easily and work out alright. If you aim toward keeping the COI in about the 25 to 30 percent range, you'll have just enough inbred genes to start to establish them, but not enough to easily outbreed a particular negative trait. It takes longer certainly then having all inbred stock, but arguably shorter then not having any inbred stock at all.

I aimed to have my leopard tarpan stock at about that level. Now that I have quite a good number of stock, I only need to breed in an AC horse every three generations at most to keep the COI down. But with my recent other projects... I'm falling behind a little, some of my stock are climbing into the 35 range...

However, the combined method has been working for me. I also use the same method for my other projects on my other account and have met with quite a bit of success. Well, what I would consider success. Such a method might not work for everyone, depending on what their needs are.

[BlackOak2]

...

The first born was an utter failure. Apparently the standing stud I chose off the market and my mare didn't meld well. I bred them again, so I'll see if that pair will give a better offspring.

Regardless, my personal stock did produce a much better outcome. A filly. I wanted to send you a colt, since a colt can be bred a number of additional times; a filly has a much more limited amount of breedings. Anyway, come collect her when you have the chance (your choice of price, we didn't discuss one after all).

I'll let you know if the second breeding and proceeding foal offers anything worthy or not. Or you can just tell me that one is plenty and I'll just rehome it.