Flaxen

[Arctictea]

So, I think I have misunderstood flaxen somehow.
I just bought an Turkmene that comes from the adoption center. One of his foals (that I do not own!) looks like a flaxen to me? Check the horse; the picture is outdated.


Is it flaxen? I thought flaxen was supposed to be recessive; then the AC-Turkmene-father carries another copy? But turkmenes aren't supposed to carry flaxen?

Can the foal be dun somehow? Can dun even lighten the mane/tail? I once bought an dun/roan-mare that looked like flaxen, but never threw flaxen foals when bred to a pure flaxen... So there is something fishy going on with my flaxen knowledge.

[BlackOak2]

So, I think I have misunderstood flaxen somehow.
I just bought an Turkmene that comes from the adoption center. One of his foals (that I do not own!) looks like a flaxen to me? Check the horse; the picture is outdated.
Is it flaxen? I thought flaxen was supposed to be recessive; then the AC-Turkmene-father carries another copy? But turkmenes aren't supposed to carry flaxen?

Can the foal be dun somehow? Can dun even lighten the mane/tail? I once bought an dun/roan-mare that looked like flaxen, but never threw flaxen foals when bred to a pure flaxen... So there is something fishy going on with my flaxen knowledge.

Your flaxen knowledge is correct. Flaxen is recessive and according to our quick guide by ancient breed, turks 'don't' carry flaxen. But this foal is certainly a flaxen carrier, which means both parents carry flaxen genes.

At first I though perhaps the foal might've been a silver express-er, but he's definitely chestnut. And also definitely flaxen.

[Arctictea]

(Yeah, in hindsight I suspect the mystery flaxen dun/roan shetland mare must have been some kind of silver expresser. A shame I retired her after a while.)

But, uh, I'll hold onto this stallion then and see if I cannot breedback some of his foals with him. We'll see if it replicates or is a rendering error or something.

[Arctictea]

Got a second flaxen foal out of him (mare is flaxen chestnut):




Working on...

[BlackOak2]

That certainly is curious.
We'll have to keep in mind that it appears AC turks are carriers of flaxen genes. I don't recall specifically ever seeing an AC turk with flaxen, but that doesn't necessarily mean I haven't either.

It never occurred to me either way. I don't bother looking at the ancient color topic unless I need to know what they have, but have always followed it as a solid start.
Save for the one error with Forests also coming in chestnut, which isn't marked, I didn't think there was any other major errors.

[Arctictea]

That certainly is curious.
We'll have to keep in mind that it appears AC turks are carriers of flaxen genes. I don't recall specifically ever seeing an AC turk with flaxen, but that doesn't necessarily mean I haven't either.

It never occurred to me either way. I don't bother looking at the ancient color topic unless I need to know what they have, but have always followed it as a solid start.
Save for the one error with Forests also coming in chestnut, which isn't marked, I didn't think there was any other major errors.

Hey, you remember my odd glitch turkmene that changed colour?
Guess who just gave me an flaxen foal




So he must carry flaxen too. It doesn't even seem to be that rare (or maybe I'm a flaxen magnet), so it's odd I've never seen a flaxen turkmene in the AC (and yes, i have looked!). I wonder if their flaxen genes are set to have a very subtle flaxen coloration or something (all the flaxen foals have been mixes with very light-flaxen mares, and usually they are much less brilliant than their dams).

[BlackOak2]

Hey, you remember my odd glitch turkmene that changed colour?
Guess who just gave me an flaxen foal


So he must carry flaxen too. It doesn't even seem to be that rare (or maybe I'm a flaxen magnet), so it's odd I've never seen a flaxen turkmene in the AC (and yes, i have looked!). I wonder if their flaxen genes are set to have a very subtle flaxen coloration or something (all the flaxen foals have been mixes with very light-flaxen mares, and usually they are much less brilliant than their dams).

I was scanning through the AC turks myself and haven't yet come across a flaxen chestnut either. I don't think that they're just too gentle of an expression to see, I think it's just because they only carry one flaxen gene.
Of course, it could just be rare for turks to carry flaxen and you just happened to pick up them both. Kind of like how we can find belgians without pangare, but it's a rare treat. We can even find belgians without flaxen and that's a rare treat.

I have been breeding my leopard tarpans for quite some time to favor black-based, agouti genes, so for awhile I figured I had bred out all the chestnut genes. Yet just recently I had a pair of browns throw a chestnut foal. And in fact, 80% of the foals that they produced were chestnut. Considering that they both have to throw their single e extension in order for the foal to be chestnut, that's only a 1 in 4 chance for that chestnut color to appear, yet most of that pair's foals were chestnut.
What I'm attempting to say is that some combinations, or perhaps more appropriately, some studs or mares do seem to favor throwing certain genes, rather then having a true randomization of throwing the genes they carry.
I don't know how true or if it's programmed to be that way, however it does seem a little suspicious that gene passage with very low chance to occur, sometimes continue to happen with certain breeders and even certain lines.

So having a stud consistently throw flaxen when it doesn't appear to have flaxen isn't really too surprising to me. It is curious however that we don't have confirmation of a flaxen turk from the AC to give us a truly positive answer. (Not that having a flaxen throwing AC turk horse isn't itself a positive answer)

[Arctictea]

I was scanning through the AC turks myself and haven't yet come across a flaxen chestnut either. I don't think that they're just too gentle of an expression to see, I think it's just because they only carry one flaxen gene.
Of course, it could just be rare for turks to carry flaxen and you just happened to pick up them both. Kind of like how we can find belgians without pangare, but it's a rare treat. We can even find belgians without flaxen and that's a rare treat.

That is certainly a solution that would explain why there are carriers but so far no visible flaxen. It just seems inconsistent with all the other breeds and all the other genes, where there are no hard-coded carriers only as far as I know.
We don't know how rare it is for Turks to carry flaxen, so it could very well be so rare that a visible flaxen only turns up once in a blue moon.

I have been breeding my leopard tarpans for quite some time to favor black-based, agouti genes, so for awhile I figured I had bred out all the chestnut genes. Yet just recently I had a pair of browns throw a chestnut foal. And in fact, 80% of the foals that they produced were chestnut. Considering that they both have to throw their single e extension in order for the foal to be chestnut, that's only a 1 in 4 chance for that chestnut color to appear, yet most of that pair's foals were chestnut.
What I'm attempting to say is that some combinations, or perhaps more appropriately, some studs or mares do seem to favor throwing certain genes, rather then having a true randomization of throwing the genes they carry.
I don't know how true or if it's programmed to be that way, however it does seem a little suspicious that gene passage with very low chance to occur, sometimes continue to happen with certain breeders and even certain lines.

Chance is a finicky and unintuative thing. It could be due to a programming hiccup, or it could simply be that if you had taken two hundred foals they would have displayed the "right" distribution. I remember that my first mouse litter was something like 9 males and 2 females, and while I was surprised I also think that is fairly normal.

So having a stud consistently throw flaxen when it doesn't appear to have flaxen isn't really too surprising to me. It is curious however that we don't have confirmation of a flaxen turk from the AC to give us a truly positive answer. (Not that having a flaxen throwing AC turk horse isn't itself a positive answer)

That's why I'm trying to breed back King with his pure Turk daughters, and so far, no flaxen offspring. He must have flaxen, and it should show sooner or later, but aargh. I guess I'm just frustrated at the grind

On another note, I did search for other flaxen-less breeds in order to see if other chestnut hue genes would help shake things up a little. The first thing I found was this caspian that looks awfully flaxen for not being flaxen:

[BlackOak2]

Chance is a finicky and unintuative thing. It could be due to a programming hiccup, or it could simply be that if you had taken two hundred foals they would have displayed the "right" distribution. I remember that my first mouse litter was something like 9 males and 2 females, and while I was surprised I also think that is fairly normal.

You're quite correct, and I am well aware of it. There is the same chance of flipping a coin 100 times and coming up 50/50 for heads tails as there is for coming up 99 times on tails. The chance is indeed a 'random' characteristic. But... it's still a funny thing when it happens.

That's why I'm trying to breed back King with his pure Turk daughters, and so far, no flaxen offspring. He must have flaxen, and it should show sooner or later, but aargh. I guess I'm just frustrated at the grind

On another note, I did search for other flaxen-less breeds in order to see if other chestnut hue genes would help shake things up a little. The first thing I found was this caspian that looks awfully flaxen for not being flaxen:

Grinding for throwing the right foal is indeed very frustrating. I'm right there with you.

There is a very slim chance that the caspian's 'flaxen' appearance is being from pangare, although I don't think it can affect the mane and tail when it doesn't naturally reach up the body that far. There is a better chance of it being a sooty affect if it's not flaxen. But again, it appears to be flaxen.

I wonder if it's time we get that AC sheet updated. I wonder also if Argent would be willing to update it or if it'd just be easier/better to rewrite an entirely new one. So many of us depend on that sheet.

[Arctictea]

Grinding for throwing the right foal is indeed very frustrating. I'm right there with you.

There is a very slim chance that the caspian's 'flaxen' appearance is being from pangare, although I don't think it can affect the mane and tail when it doesn't naturally reach up the body that far. There is a better chance of it being a sooty affect if it's not flaxen. But again, it appears to be flaxen.

I wonder if it's time we get that AC sheet updated. I wonder also if Argent would be willing to update it or if it'd just be easier/better to rewrite an entirely new one. So many of us depend on that sheet.

Well, the first two fillies still stand for the vast majority of his grandfoals, so I hope they just plain suck and the rest of his daughters (who finally got of age) are much better and will throw me a plenthora of flaxens

I'm going to breed her of course, and with a bit of luck her foals will be clear and nice. It's those light fetlocks that almost (but not quite) settle the deal for me. They look so typical flaxen.

With three potential edits we should at least write in the topic or something (not that many check the last page). I agree that the sheet is fundamental, I've been following and using it a lot. It would also be good to get a third opinion on my flaxens before we make any edits, just in case... As soon as my turks stop throwing fails.