Sooty? How exactly does it work?

[Uralym]

So, here is the horse whose color is definitely silver dun.




The question is, why is the body color so dark? Is this an effect of the sooty gene? And if so, then how does it work? This horse most likely got some genes from his sire (silver red dun?) but the sire's body color is not nearly as dark. So, are there more than one gene for sooty? Probably some hidden genes that describe different shades and localisations? Any help?

Also, it'd be great to see other's examples of these genes))

[HallOfFame 2]

So, here is the horse whose color is definitely silver dun.




The question is, why is the body color so dark? Is this an effect of the sooty gene? And if so, then how does it work? This horse most likely got some genes from his sire (silver red dun?) but the sire's body color is not nearly as dark. So, are there more than one gene for sooty? Probably some hidden genes that describe different shades and localisations? Any help?

Also, it'd be great to see other's examples of these genes))

Hi,

First of all lovely horse! I love Sooty horses. I do believe you are right that he got from his sire. His sire is rather dark as well but he may have gotten heavier gene of sooty which is why he appears to be so dark. If you look at his sire's dam she appears to be rather dark on her legs as well. I have friends who have been working with Sooty's and some have turned out to be dark like yours, just on a different base coat. They can sometimes be called Pseudo-Black horses because they appear black but their base color is not. Some sooty horses can even inherit a dapple gene as well. I have listed some different variations sooty horses below. (As you can see some have light sooty genes (faint black smudges on their coat or their legs) and others have dark ones (over their whole body making them appear darker)).

Silver Sooty Perlino Dapple

Sooty Chestnut Tobiano

Sooty Buckskin

Sooty Buckskin Dapple Tobiano

Silver Sooty Buckskin Dapple Tobiano

Sooty Buckskin Dapple

Sooty Perlino Dapple

Sooty Silver Perlino

Sooty Buckskin Pearl

Sooty Bay Tobiano

Sooty Dappled Bay Tobiano


Hope this made sense, if you need help or have more questions on clarifying I can do my best to help you.

~ HOF 2

[BlackOak2]

...

As HallOfFame 2 said.
Also, you may find these topics informative (original release and topic discussion):
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... f=2&t=1601
http://www.horseworldonline.net/forum/v ... f=8&t=4511

As far as my personal notes on sooty, this is what I can add (which may be and likely is a repeat of the above topics):
Sooty Gene itself
Dominant
4 master switch genes found in 3 breeds and very rarely in 4 other breeds
4 expression genes (area of coverage), found in 3 breeds and rarely in 4 others
4 strength genes found 'in most breeds to varying degrees'
1 progression gene, fastest found in 5 breeds, but slowest found in all breeds

Sooty Dapple Gene itself
Dominant
master switch in only one breed
3 strength genes also in just that one master switch breed
must have both sooty and dapples to appear
master switch breed rarely appears sooty & 1 in 4 horses will carry the gene

This information won't likely answer your question directly, so I'll also include this: It's likely a combination of both your colt's parents genes and also the slow progressive darkening that your colt's sire's lines have been expressing, in the same fashion that we can spread leopard or tobiano 'like filling a cup, when the cup overfills, the patterns spread'. Except in your case, or the case of sooty, when the cup overfills, the sooty gets darker.

[Uralym]

Hi,

First of all lovely horse! I love Sooty horses. I do believe you are right that he got from his sire. His sire is rather dark as well but he may have gotten heavier gene of sooty which is why he appears to be so dark. If you look at his sire's dam she appears to be rather dark on her legs as well. I have friends who have been working with Sooty's and some have turned out to be dark like yours, just on a different base coat. They can sometimes be called Pseudo-Black horses because they appear black but their base color is not. Some sooty horses can even inherit a dapple gene as well. I have listed some different variations sooty horses below. (As you can see some have light sooty genes (faint black smudges on their coat or their legs) and others have dark ones (over their whole body making them appear darker)).

~ HOF 2

Oh, wow, those are really cool looking horses! Thank you for providing such bright examples. I haven't paid much attention to my horse's colors as long as they had decent stats, but now I'm definitely into breeding for color too)) And this sooty shading is something I'd much like to expand through my herd.

[HallOfFame 2]

Hi,

First of all lovely horse! I love Sooty horses. I do believe you are right that he got from his sire. His sire is rather dark as well but he may have gotten heavier gene of sooty which is why he appears to be so dark. If you look at his sire's dam she appears to be rather dark on her legs as well. I have friends who have been working with Sooty's and some have turned out to be dark like yours, just on a different base coat. They can sometimes be called Pseudo-Black horses because they appear black but their base color is not. Some sooty horses can even inherit a dapple gene as well. I have listed some different variations sooty horses below. (As you can see some have light sooty genes (faint black smudges on their coat or their legs) and others have dark ones (over their whole body making them appear darker)).

~ HOF 2

Oh, wow, those are really cool looking horses! Thank you for providing such bright examples. I haven't paid much attention to my horse's colors as long as they had decent stats, but now I'm definitely into breeding for color too)) And this sooty shading is something I'd much like to expand through my herd.

Yes, Sooty is such a pretty thing especially when they get Dapples. Makes their coat look almost like it shimmers in the sun. Glad I could help you out a bit. If you are ever wanting to cross breed I'm sure both NBK and Imagodei would be interested in helping you out. Best of luck!

~ HOF 2

[Uralym]

...

As far as my personal notes on sooty, this is what I can add (which may be and likely is a repeat of the above topics):
Sooty Gene itself
Dominant
4 master switch genes found in 3 breeds and very rarely in 4 other breeds
4 expression genes (area of coverage), found in 3 breeds and rarely in 4 others
4 strength genes found 'in most breeds to varying degrees'
1 progression gene, fastest found in 5 breeds, but slowest found in all breeds

Sooty Dapple Gene itself
Dominant
master switch in only one breed
3 strength genes also in just that one master switch breed
must have both sooty and dapples to appear
master switch breed rarely appears sooty & 1 in 4 horses will carry the gene

This information won't likely answer your question directly, so I'll also include this: It's likely a combination of both your colt's parents genes and also the slow progressive darkening that your colt's sire's lines have been expressing, in the same fashion that we can spread leopard or tobiano 'like filling a cup, when the cup overfills, the patterns spread'. Except in your case, or the case of sooty, when the cup overfills, the sooty gets darker.

Thank you for providing the links - I'll read the topics for additional info.

So, if the shade of darkening caused by the sooty gene may progress as well as leopard spots spread than does it mean that these genes have some kind of numerical (quantitative) values, like, say, height genes?

Thanks for your help!

[BlackOak2]

Thank you for providing the links - I'll read the topics for additional info.

So, if the shade of darkening caused by the sooty gene may progress as well as leopard spots spread than does it mean that these genes have some kind of numerical (quantitative) values, like, say, height genes?

Thanks for your help!

I would assume that's the way they have it programmed. I'm not sure exactly, but it does seem to work that way.

I'm not sure of the way the programming is handled and if certain genes are coded different, in such a way as 'it either IS or IS NOT' (for example, height can be in the range of 14 to 17, because all of these genes are included in the horse, but the horse IS 15.1 and IS NOT 14, 14.1, 14.2... and so on) OR... if the coding is hard numerical value as in, they add up to a certain set number and it can only be such number regardless of the other genes that's carried (for example, height can be in the range of 14 to 17, but the set number that was passed on Makes the horse 15.1).

But from what I've seen, most of the genes appear to be the hard numerical value type... height, leg length, body type percentage, so on... with the exception of certain color genes. Certain color genes come across as the IS or IS NOT style. For instance, black is either IS with just one or two genes, or IS NOT, without either gene (chestnut).

But we're getting into something I know very little about.

But yes, sooty does seem to be handled the same, or very similarly to height, leopard, tobiano, ear length, back length... etc.

[Uralym]

Yes, Sooty is such a pretty thing especially when they get Dapples. Makes their coat look almost like it shimmers in the sun. Glad I could help you out a bit. If you are ever wanting to cross breed I'm sure both NBK and Imagodei would be interested in helping you out. Best of luck!

~ HOF 2

Yeah, totally agree, they look gorgeous and quite unusual, considering that the sooty dapple gene combination is rather rare. I certainly will be looking to add it to my herd too)

Thank you!

[HallOfFame 2]

Yes, Sooty is such a pretty thing especially when they get Dapples. Makes their coat look almost like it shimmers in the sun. Glad I could help you out a bit. If you are ever wanting to cross breed I'm sure both NBK and Imagodei would be interested in helping you out. Best of luck!

~ HOF 2

Yeah, totally agree, they look gorgeous and quite unusual, considering that the sooty dapple gene combination is rather rare. I certainly will be looking to add it to my herd too)

Thank you!

You're very welcome! Good luck with your Sooty herd!

~ HOF 2

[Tjigra]

Am I alone in thinking that the horse in question is not actually silver, but rather a very extremely sooty flaxen chestnut? And the sire is a sooty flaxen red dun? I mean, look at the newborn and yearling pictures - the horse is already dark all over, but the legs are not noticeably darker than the rest of the body. I also don't see any dun marks (but I do see them on the sire).