$ℱ~ Doing the Never Before: Creating the Racing St. Lawrence

[Sawd10]

Hello, Nazarach. How is it?

To start things off, thanks. For both the comment and the offer.
As of right now, I do not think I need to outbreed. Well, not yet. I can foresee that the future will have a good amount of COI in it, and I would definitely need an option to bring it down. Over the last weekend I just got the first batch of 100% St. Lawrences after crossing them to some black roans for colouring, so your post is just late. If it were earlier, your horses would have probably been handy. Since I just got the colouring situated, it would probably be a little while before I would perhaps want to mess around with creams. I am mainly attempting to have legitimate homozygous blacks/EE, so I am not completely ruling out smoky blacks throughout the project, just at this moment in time. I am going to try and refrain from the "let's just... try the smoky blacks. This one looks like a perfect fit for the project, and they look pretty much identical when mature" type of situations since black is my real goal, but I can honestly see those moments possibly being a problem in the future. Haha.
All the same, I appreciate the offer. Very much. And, if I ever need to out-breed, if these or horses of yours similar to such are still available, I would keep it in mind.
Thank you.

Hi there read up this topic and these horses look pretty nice <3

I wanted to offer you my Black Roans for Crossbreeding and getting the black and roan in (sometimes smoky is creeping around there but the adult coat looks the same so...) if you are interested?

[Sawd10]

Update.

Last weekend (< yes, I forgot to update, my bad.) I successfully finished crossing the St. Lawrences for colouring. The colouring, for those unaware, is EE (or, at least attempting for homozygous. You can not necessarily check for that, but any that throw chestnuts/ee will likely be rehomed in hopes of all black hair) and on some of them, Rn-. This means that the offspring of each horse will have a 50% chance of being pure blacks, (not smoky) while the other 50% will be black roans. Hopefully no chestnuts/roans come into the stock, but if they do, they will be culled.
What (roughly) happened in my (successful) goal.
I have a close friend that allowed me some of their private stock of black roan Thoroughbreds. They sold me a few males, which I crossed to my already-black St. Lawrences, culling any that threw ee foals. The crossing went much better than I had originally speculated; it only took 5 generations at best(?). I haven't gotten them too circulated yet, but I am pretty certain that the genes are transferring to the purebreds just fine. Note that I was not crossing for stats, build, or anything of such. Strictly for colouring and colouring only, thus the builds and stats have not changed too much.
Here are a few of the 100%s...

If I can find them...

...

Ah, yes.



This filly's build is the best aspect of her at this point, I would say. Horse type medium lights are not super often run across at this time. She is cute and small. By the time she matures, I may end up rehoming her, though. Her speed is pretty awful. I only kept her since she was from the first batch of purebreds, and her build sweetened the deal.



A 1-stat, medium-heavy colt. Also black. Confo is more balanced overall: nicer speed, good agility, great strength, and average stamina.



Pony-type mediums are pleasing the look at. I don't have much to say about this one because there is not much to be said; she has no real strengths. She will probably be rehomed.

So far no roans. Yet. I will not be moving on until they are more circulated. In my defenses, I was not breeding the first batch of 100% foals to black roans because I had none available. Anyways, some roans should arrive soon, so nothing went wrong.
What is the next step?
I will breed them for a few generations to get enough matured 100% stock to start crossing... again. But, this is the exciting...ly I lied most tedious part of the project: crossing for stats, build, etc. This is the part of my projects where I lack the encouragement to continue. So... I'm going to have a fine time.

You are either sticking around for the outcome or to watch me go on a *-ride. Probably both.

[AltNazarach]

Hello, Nazarach. How is it?

To start things off, thanks. For both the comment and the offer.
As of right now, I do not think I need to outbreed. Well, not yet. I can foresee that the future will have a good amount of COI in it, and I would definitely need an option to bring it down. Over the last weekend I just got the first batch of 100% St. Lawrences after crossing them to some black roans for colouring, so your post is just late. If it were earlier, your horses would have probably been handy. Since I just got the colouring situated, it would probably be a little while before I would perhaps want to mess around with creams. I am mainly attempting to have legitimate homozygous blacks/EE, so I am not completely ruling out smoky blacks throughout the project, just at this moment in time. I am going to try and refrain from the "let's just... try the smoky blacks. This one looks like a perfect fit for the project, and they look pretty much identical when mature" type of situations since black is my real goal, but I can honestly see those moments possibly being a problem in the future. Haha.
All the same, I appreciate the offer. Very much. And, if I ever need to out-breed, if these or horses of yours similar to such are still available, I would keep it in mind.
Thank you.

Hi I'm doing fine - muddling around in my main account but making baby steps with my alt breeding for sanhes ^^ still a long way to go v.v but i've found apreciation for my cute pony breeds through it so there's that x)

I'm always keeping (or trying to) a few Blue Roans about - I adore most shades/dillutions of black and try to keep all of them in some of my lines and especially the roans as there are indeed few people wo seem to like the gene - which is a pity
So, if you ever want some outcrossings just give a wave and I'll dig my Blue Roans out for inspection o.o Maybe next generation I'll even have a stallion instead of just mares ^^'

Understandable, what with yourconcerns for Cream; getting a certain color in can already be hard enough - to add more possibilities to the pool instead of just adding one variant or two max is more reasonable (and I'm liable to sometimes just jump into things and follow some shiny and then wonder how i ended up there) xD So yeah, clear goals and step by step like you are doing is definitely the more successful way to actually achieve what you intended

Have fun and I wish you success with your endeavors ^-)/

[Sawd10]

blows dust off

Hello, all. It's Sawd10, that dusty old player that has been hiding under a rock, inactive for the most part. I'm unsure of who would be reading this post; I will not be making a formal post, but to anyone (if anyone) reading this, how have things been in the community? Anything new?
I've been a ghost this past year and a half: present for some things and disappear for the next.

I have not kept up with the community, but I have done some minor work on my Steeplechasing St. Lawrences in this past year and a half...

• They've come a long way from the last update post. Currently, I am working with purebred (no longer mixed with Thoroughbreds) St. Lawrences as far up to generation +2.
• All are horse-type light as intended, with minimal very lights or medium-lights sprinkled around that I have to work off of, as well.
• While there are still some foals born bombproof, a majority of them are born calm or even-tempered, which I am glad for bearing in mind that bombproof genetics can be a pain to breed out.
• As planned, all of my stock is born either pure black or pure black with roan. I have not had any issues with the colouring because I worked very hard to ensure I wouldn't.
• Most of my stock has HGP ranging from 48k-53k, males having 50k+ and females having 48k-50k, typically.
• An average St. Lawrence of mine has about 2-3 highlighted stats. The Breeder's Report and conformation are my current focus aspects. I've gotten green speed at most, gold stamina, above-average strength comments, and above-average/green agility comments. Howbeit, I have not yet gotten highlighted speed and stamina on the same horse—it has been one or the other.
• If one has ever worked a project up from scratch, they'll know that the conformation always comes along quite slowly. Presently, the conformations of my stock seem to average out as follows: 28+/27-34/24-30/24+. (Speed, Agility, Strength, Stamina, respectively.)
• The body-size and type, for the most part, haven't been worked on. I check them on occasion, but I do not cull for them. I expect to focus more on them after I've got more competition prospects and less work to do with the BR and confo. The size and type often seem to work themselves out.


I have a topical up-and-coming stallion that seems to encapsulate where I am with the project. Meet Dark Roast.

$ℱ~ Dark Roast

99%/Light/Roan
52.2k
*Green Speed* ("Unbelievably fast")
Gold Tem/Int
"Appears to be very agile"
35 spd
26 agi
23 str
22 stm
Keep at Spirited/Moderate
42% body size (CT: 50%)
90% horse type (CT: 85%)
The "Hall of Fame" area in the front post has been updated.

I was very pleased with him. He, I presume, will be an exceptional contribution and factor in my Steeplechasing St. Lawrence project's current state.

Now... Perhaps there is speculation on what is to come next. I must continue onward with improving the Breeder's Reports and conformation for much time, while keeping them purebred (I reckon I would have have to cross-breed again in the future to keep the inbreeding down, but I have no wish to do so anytime soon).
I am satisfied with their outward appearance. I worked hard on it.
However...
If you have conversed with me before, you may know that I do not like feathering. I do think the fluffy mane looks wonderful on the blacks and blue roans, but I want a restraining order placed on the feathers. The feathers were a byproduct of the drafty horses that my St. Lawrence stock used to be. My ideal look is a thick, long mane & tail (fluffy or not) on a pure black or pure black roan.
Ergo, I plan on eventually breeding out the feathering, and keeping horses that have fluffy mane and no feathering (which will be arduous regarding that feathers and fluffy mane are stuck together like glue—but I'm all right with the long fetlock fur that doesn't grow into feathers), or no feathers and no fluffy mane altogether. Just a thick, long mane & tail.
But for now, I am not going to make any advances in removing the feathers lest I place too much of a burden on my stock that is, in itself, quite fine as-is.


This extensive post is probably enough of an update to cover everything that has happened in a brief and impromptu way.
Now I will get back to work.

- Sawd10 (08/19/23)

[BlackOak2]

;D
Welcome back.

Changes to the market, I'm sure you've seen by now.

Your stock is looking, quite... purdy! Good body form.
You could, theoretically, take one of your current stock and turn it into a grade stock for future usage to fix things. Like the feathers, for instance, and also locking into the traits that you like now so that if you happen to veer too far away from them, you have something to get it back in.

[Sawd10]

;D
Welcome back.

Thank you for the welcome. It is nice to see a familiar face.

The marketplace update is neat. It unarguably makes the sales and studs markets much easier to surf and much less saturated. The Clear the Market organization doesn't have to play nearly as big of a role in stripping the market of old ads. A 6-month time slot for each ad is quite workable.

Thank you. Hopefully this current bout of inbreeding doesn't ruin that good body form too much though
I actually was thinking of creating a grade to use in the future. However, I was contemplating creating a grade horse out of unrelated blood that fits my standards (e.g. steeple-type, E/E with/without roan, no feathers) and saving it for that lovely time that comes in the future when I realize that a little too much inbreeding has been done... It might be some extra work finding some low-COI stock that fits my standards to begin with.
But then again, I also freeze different horses from different phases of all of my projects for future usage, so mayhap I'll just create a related grade and an unrelated grade.

I don't know what some players have been up to since I haven't been active in the community, only through the Discord server. With that said, have you any clue if there are any current breeders that dabble in horses similar to my standards for the Lawrences? I was thinking it'd be fine to infuse my lines with some established lines if I happen to find some I like enough. Otherwise I'll create an unrelated grade from scratch.

[BlackOak2]

;D
Welcome back.

Thank you for the welcome. It is nice to see a familiar face.

The marketplace update is neat. It unarguably makes the sales and studs markets much easier to surf and much less saturated. The Clear the Market organization doesn't have to play nearly as big of a role in stripping the market of old ads. A 6-month time slot for each ad is quite workable.

Thank you. Hopefully this current bout of inbreeding doesn't ruin that good body form too much though
I actually was thinking of creating a grade to use in the future. However, I was contemplating creating a grade horse out of unrelated blood that fits my standards (e.g. steeple-type, E/E with/without roan, no feathers) and saving it for that lovely time that comes in the future when I realize that a little too much inbreeding has been done... It might be some extra work finding some low-COI stock that fits my standards to begin with.
But then again, I also freeze different horses from different phases of all of my projects for future usage, so mayhap I'll just create a related grade and an unrelated grade.

I don't know what some players have been up to since I haven't been active in the community, only through the Discord server. With that said, have you any clue if there are any current breeders that dabble in horses similar to my standards for the Lawrences? I was thinking it'd be fine to infuse my lines with some established lines if I happen to find some I like enough. Otherwise I'll create an unrelated grade from scratch.

Remember, only the last seven generations are used (or was that six??). Anyway, there's another ally to deal with COI, if you keep (stallions are usually easier to manage) a horse every third generation, and save three of them, you can utilize a rolling process with just those three. Take the first saved, breed it to no more than... well... if you have ten breedable, no more than two, so... 20%? of your herd. Then two generations later, use the second horse, then two generations after that, the third, then rinse and repeat.

This will help to control COI and should maintain it between 20% and 35% consistently. And, each horse can be replaced whenever you find a better substitute. Then you don't need to deal with grades at all. Just remember, replacements, only do one replacement in a round.

****

Retsi's having a 'going away' party. They're selling their top stock. Should be something there for you. And then the usual players with those usual top horses. Although the only one I see regularly anymore is HorzeLover101. Although, I think if you ping PeacefulOreo, they'll get back to you at some point. Silverine has some hidden gems, should be easy enough to get something worthwhile over there.

I've seen Frost from time to time, but usually in chat (you know I don't visit there very often), and I've also seen vallers recently and... mora, but I don't recall which one is the main.

So, we've had a number of seniors back around recently enough. I can't really say any of the newbie's or junior's with stock though. I haven't been keeping up on them.

[BlackOak2]

Oh, Grades are helpful for maintaining body forms themselves. And easier to regulate when out-crossing to other stock. Plus, if something comes out that's ... ehem... ridiculously awful, you won't feel so bad getting rid of it for another go.

***
Oh! And Rhorsegirl80's made a recent comeback.

[Sawd10]

Thank you for the welcome. It is nice to see a familiar face.

The marketplace update is neat. It unarguably makes the sales and studs markets much easier to surf and much less saturated. The Clear the Market organization doesn't have to play nearly as big of a role in stripping the market of old ads. A 6-month time slot for each ad is quite workable.

Thank you. Hopefully this current bout of inbreeding doesn't ruin that good body form too much though
I actually was thinking of creating a grade to use in the future. However, I was contemplating creating a grade horse out of unrelated blood that fits my standards (e.g. steeple-type, E/E with/without roan, no feathers) and saving it for that lovely time that comes in the future when I realize that a little too much inbreeding has been done... It might be some extra work finding some low-COI stock that fits my standards to begin with.
But then again, I also freeze different horses from different phases of all of my projects for future usage, so mayhap I'll just create a related grade and an unrelated grade.

I don't know what some players have been up to since I haven't been active in the community, only through the Discord server. With that said, have you any clue if there are any current breeders that dabble in horses similar to my standards for the Lawrences? I was thinking it'd be fine to infuse my lines with some established lines if I happen to find some I like enough. Otherwise I'll create an unrelated grade from scratch.

Remember, only the last seven generations are used (or was that six??). Anyway, there's another ally to deal with COI, if you keep (stallions are usually easier to manage) a horse every third generation, and save three of them, you can utilize a rolling process with just those three. Take the first saved, breed it to no more than... well... if you have ten breedable, no more than two, so... 20%? of your herd. Then two generations later, use the second horse, then two generations after that, the third, then rinse and repeat.

This will help to control COI and should maintain it between 20% and 35% consistently. And, each horse can be replaced whenever you find a better substitute. Then you don't need to deal with grades at all. Just remember, replacements, only do one replacement in a round.

****

Retsi's having a 'going away' party. They're selling their top stock. Should be something there for you. And then the usual players with those usual top horses. Although the only one I see regularly anymore is HorzeLover101. Although, I think if you ping PeacefulOreo, they'll get back to you at some point. Silverine has some hidden gems, should be easy enough to get something worthwhile over there.

I've seen Frost from time to time, but usually in chat (you know I don't visit there very often), and I've also seen vallers recently and... mora, but I don't recall which one is the main.

So, we've had a number of seniors back around recently enough. I can't really say any of the newbie's or junior's with stock though. I haven't been keeping up on them.

Right. If I remember correctly, it's the past seven generations.
The first Lawrences I bred (I bred them from scratch) had 0% COI since the parents were unrelated. However, I got the first St. Lawrence stallion and mare from the same parents, so there was already going to be some inbreeding, which is arguably unavoidable in some cases with rare breeds. I didn't mind that because they were bays, so I wasn't going to have a problem getting the black and roan in.
Most of my stock was related in the beginning. After circulation I started cross-breeding to a few of Horze's Thoroughbreds for the colouring and build; Horze's stock was unrelated, so COI was back down again.
Bred back to pure and started working on the stats and confo (that's where I am now). So by now, they've been inbred. Dark Roast, the stallion I linked above, has a 7-Gen COI of about 81.6%.
I might let the inbreeding "go free" when they've got better BRs and higher GP. In other words, once they've got better stats in general, I wouldn't mind locking that in with inbreeding, rather than mistakenly locking in low GP and low stats. That's my biggest concern with inbreeding at this stage, especially when it comes to rare breeds.

I don't recall using that rolling method with my own stock before. But wouldn't that extra effort just get cancelled out if I start saving horses now, considering that most of them have already been subject to a lot of inbreeding? Wouldn't I have had to start doing that a while ago for it to be effective? Or maybe I'm missing something.

I did see that Retsi is going away. That's too bad; Retsi and I hung out often when we were both active. I should check out their stock if they'd allow it because I can trust them to be a good influence on mine.
I did out-breed to some of Horze's stock in the beginning, as said above, but they have multiple different bloodlines that are always worth checking. Silverine as well.
Rhorsegirl80, Frost, PeacefulOreo, vallers... Quite a lot of familiar names are back at it, then. That's excellent.

[BlackOak2]

Right. If I remember correctly, it's the past seven generations.
The first Lawrences I bred (I bred them from scratch) had 0% COI since the parents were unrelated. However, I got the first St. Lawrence stallion and mare from the same parents, so there was already going to be some inbreeding, which is arguably unavoidable in some cases with rare breeds. I didn't mind that because they were bays, so I wasn't going to have a problem getting the black and roan in.
Most of my stock was related in the beginning. After circulation I started cross-breeding to a few of Horze's Thoroughbreds for the colouring and build; Horze's stock was unrelated, so COI was back down again.
Bred back to pure and started working on the stats and confo (that's where I am now). So by now, they've been inbred. Dark Roast, the stallion I linked above, has a 7-Gen COI of about 81.6%.
I might let the inbreeding "go free" when they've got better BRs and higher GP. In other words, once they've got better stats in general, I wouldn't mind locking that in with inbreeding, rather than mistakenly locking in low GP and low stats. That's my biggest concern with inbreeding at this stage, especially when it comes to rare breeds.

I don't recall using that rolling method with my own stock before. But wouldn't that extra effort just get cancelled out if I start saving horses now, considering that most of them have already been subject to a lot of inbreeding? Wouldn't I have had to start doing that a while ago for it to be effective? Or maybe I'm missing something.

I did see that Retsi is going away. That's too bad; Retsi and I hung out often when we were both active. I should check out their stock if they'd allow it because I can trust them to be a good influence on mine.
I did out-breed to some of Horze's stock in the beginning, as said above, but they have multiple different bloodlines that are always worth checking. Silverine as well.
Rhorsegirl80, Frost, PeacefulOreo, vallers... Quite a lot of familiar names are back at it, then. That's excellent.

If you got the funds, now's the time to get it done: viewtopic.php?p=360105

Rolling method requires unrelated horses saved, that are unrelated over about 5 generations... or maybe it was four?
Anyway, you don't want to save, say a father and a son, or even a father and a great-grandson.
You want to do something like distant cousins. And, it can still work, even now. But it'll also take time to work. Plus, you want to use decent stock, because you'll likely be infusing THOSE genetics continually, so, in essence, you'll be breeding out any genes that your frozen stock doesn't have.

I think, when I first tried the method, my COI was sitting around the 35 percentile. When I stopped breeding that line, more than a number of generations in, my COI was holding at about 25% consistently. So, even if you use related stock, you're line-breeding and not actually breeding them to closely related stock. It's the closeness that gets us.

You're inbreeding will still be relatively high, but with patience and careful revolving of your frozen stock (favoring the lower COI you see popping out), you will eventually start controlling it.

Best to save unbred horses in freeze and start rolling them once your first horse is at least 5 generations from your current stock.

Inbreeding has a LOT of uses. But it can also create problems. But as long as you stay aware of it... then you should be able to work it.